CyberWire-X 11.13.18
Ep 1 | 11.13.18

Regulation in the U.S.


Dave Bittner: [00:00:04] Hi everybody and welcome to CyberWire-X, a new series of specials designed to highlight important security topics that are impacting individuals and organizations all over the world. This is the first of a four-part series called "Ground Truth or Consequences: The Challenges and Opportunities of Regulation in Cyberspace." Today we're focusing on the United States, particularly the patchwork of regulation and standards of practice emerging across the country. We'll discuss how new laws are affecting companies, and of course their treatment of cyber risk and the ways organizations prepare.

Dave Bittner: [00:00:39] A program note - each CyberWire-X special features two segments. In the first half of the show, we'll hear from industry experts on the topic at hand, and in the second half we'll check in with our show sponsor for their point of view.

Dave Bittner: [00:00:52] And speaking of sponsors, a word from our sponsor, Gemalto. Your enterprise is rich with sensitive data, at rest and in motion throughout the network. But what happens if that sensitive data isn't secure, or if it's improperly accessed? We're guessing that, regardless of what defenses you have currently implemented, the thought of your data being stolen or manipulated keeps you up at night. Gemalto tackles the two main causes of cyberattacks: identity theft and data breaches. They do this by providing next-generation digital security built from two technologies - secure digital identification and data encryption. Gemalto already operates these solutions for many well-known businesses and governments, protecting trillions of data exchanges. And as independent security experts, they guarantee digital privacy and compliance with data protection regulations. Gemalto puts you back in control of your own data.

Dave Bittner: [00:01:55] Visit Gemalto today to learn more about their access management and data protection solutions. You can also check out the most recent findings from the Breach Level Index, which tracks the volume and sources of stolen data records. Go to to subscribe and learn more. That's And we thank Gemalto for sponsoring our show.

Randy Sabett: [00:02:26] For quite a long time we had very little in the way of a cyber privacy law in the US.

Dave Bittner: [00:02:33] That's Randy Sabett. He's Special Counsel at Cooley LLP.

Randy Sabett: [00:02:36] We had the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and we had the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which really deal with unauthorized access to computers mostly from a criminal perspective, and then dealing with surveillance. Neither one of which was really applicable to the problems that we saw starting to crop up once the commercial internet took off.

Christopher Pierson: [00:02:59] Privacy laws, cyber security laws, have really grown up over time in the US.

Dave Bittner: [00:03:03] That's Dr. Christopher Pierson. He's CEO and founder of BLACKCLOAK. He's a Distinguished Fellow at the Ponemon Institute and former Chief Security Officer and General Counsel at Viewpost.

Christopher Pierson: [00:03:13] Some of these things started in the '70s with the Fair Credit Reporting Act, more around access to records, access to information, and then adding on a little bit of identity theft protection later on in 2003. Security-wise, things really started a lot with HIPAA in 1996 and with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act a few years later in 1999 - GLBA much modeled after HIPAA. And that's where you start to see them having two different rules. You know, there's a privacy rule to the law and a safeguards rule to the law.

Christopher Pierson: [00:03:50] But it was very sectoral, right? HIPAA applying to the healthcare, medical information, private health information, protected health records. And GLBA, you know, applying to financial services, banking, that area of things. Of course, right, NIST applying to the government sector. But it was still, at a federal level, very sectoral. And we saw that emerging in the mid to late '90s, those rules really coming into play in the early 2000s. And I would trace things back to around that point in time for serious discussions around privacy and cyber security.

Randy Sabett: [00:04:27] And I think the first real notable aspect of privacy or cyber law in the US was on the state side, when California put in place the first Data Breach Notification Act in 2003. When you combine those two - which are federal laws - with the California state law, none of them are overarching, or sweeping, or cover everyone's information of all types. But at the end of the day, neither one of them was a broad overarching federal law related to privacy or cybersecurity.

Randy Sabett: [00:05:03] We started having data breaches and issues pop up. Not much was happening with it until there was a breach of a California state system, and then all of a sudden there was a lot of activity and the law ended up passing. And so, with that passage of SB 1386, you wound up with, now, a starting point from which all other states could follow. But everything has been bottom-up in the sense of, it's reactive and it's approaching things in the narrowest way possible.

Christopher Pierson: [00:05:34] You have those sectoral federal laws starting, then you have some individual area of law starting. You know, the CAN-SPAM Act, in terms of trying to stem the tide of spam email. And you saw the states starting to go ahead and peck away at things. You know, as privacy and cybersecurity have evolved, it really started a lot on the federal side. But then you see states saying, hmm, we're going to go ahead do some experiments here. And, you know, it's kind of the petri dish experiment. A certain number of states start with that experiment, you know, controlling spam messages will be one example. You know, something like thirty-six, forty states having anti-spam laws, and the federal government passes a federal law.

Christopher Pierson: [00:06:16] It hasn't worked that way necessarily in data breach laws, where all fifty states have data breach laws, but there is no one covering law that provides federal data breach notices. You do have a little bit in HIPAA, you do have a little bit in Gramm-Leach-Bliley, and you do for federal-side. But once again, you have this patchwork quilt of adding state by state by state, and topic by topic by topic.

Christopher Pierson: [00:06:38] And it continues to evolve, you know, it continues to evolve. Right now, we're actually dealing with a few different states - Illinois, Washington, and Texas - that have biometric acts, which is kind of interesting because biometrics are a huge, huge benefit for security. But on the flip side, right, they're a detractor in terms of privacy.

Christopher Pierson: [00:06:58] Illinois has the Biometric Information Protection Act, which basically says you can't go ahead and collect biometrics on individuals unless you provide them notice, achieve written consent, and specify time and length of destruction, how you're going to safeguard it, and if any of the information is going to be passed on to other folks, other people, other companies that are supporting you in those exercises. And you have some fifty lawsuits right now, class action suits, in Illinois around this very topic, from Facebook pictures being tagged, Shutterfly images being tagged, as well as, you know, for time tracking. It's called buddy punching, for time tracking at work using the biometric - usually a fingerprint - to clock in and out for hourly workers.

Christopher Pierson: [00:07:41] So, you know, now we're even more broad, more diverse, in terms of the number of subjects that are being covered at the state-level. The data really is the power here. I think that we're in a place right now where companies have large treasure troves of data, they continue to enrich it to study the consumer that they have in front of them, and others are more interested now than ever in gaining access to that so that they can analyze it, assess it, and use it for other, less intended ways - or non-intended ways - than when the information is given in the first place.

Christopher Pierson: [00:08:14] And that's something that we have to grapple with, and really, we need to grapple with at a federal level in the US. We can't do this state-by-state, especially on this scale. This has to be something where companies know what to expect, and customers know what to expect. We're aware of those rights, we're aware of those responsibilities, and we're actually able to ask companies and seek what information they have in hold on us, and find ways to mitigate privacy harms throughout.

Randy Sabett: [00:08:44] We now have California again leading the pack with the California Consumer Privacy Act. You can see many commentators calling this the first GDPR-like law here in the US. I actually contend it goes a little bit further, because it's got things that are going to be even more challenging for companies in terms of the what I call the "same-services provision," which says, you know, if a consumer comes to a website and they don't want to share their personal data, they have the right to do that, but they are still allowed to get the same services. I personally believe that's going to potentially break at least some of the economic model on the Internet, because for a lot of those services that you get for free, it's really not free - it's because you've given the company your personal data.

Randy Sabett: [00:09:29] So I think what we're seeing here is a transition from laws that have been very reactive, very narrow, to now looking more broadly, being more proactive. There's a lot of talk on the Hill about, you know, some federal laws potentially passing. Data breach notification is one that has gotten a lot of discussion. I saw a discussion on a website yesterday, one of the Politico websites, about a new bill that dropped that would essentially create - for certain types of companies, essentially very large companies - potentially, criminal penalties for the executives of the companies if things go bad from a privacy or a security perspective.

Randy Sabett: [00:10:13] So, I think we're tightening up, we the US. I think things are getting more attention when it comes to privacy and security. I just - my fear is that some of these laws, if they're not well-thought-out or if they're passed too quickly, they may sound good at the front-end, and then on the back-end there are some really bad repercussions.

Christopher Pierson: [00:10:35] I think that there's going to have to be something that gets tackled sooner rather than later, and I think that one might be a little more palatable at the federal level. But once again, right now, people seem to have their feet - all sides, all parties - people seem to have their feet stuck in cement on this issue. And the number of committees that claim ownership of cybersecurity - which privacy does fit into and, vicariously, privacy - there's just too many committees, too much overlap, to really get something done, unless there's a watershed moment.

Christopher Pierson: [00:11:06] I don't know what that watershed moment is. Is it all three hundred and - what is it - fifty million? You know, is it the whole Social Security Administration, the IRS, being hacked and everything being out there for sale on the internet? I don't know what the watershed moment is. I thought OPM was as close as we could get. I thought Equifax was pretty much there. So I don't know what other watershed moment there is to kind of bring people, bring politicians, together in terms of, let's go ahead and tackle this together, in a bipartisan way - or in a nonpartisan way, excuse me - that will actually get things done, get things accomplished, and help enable consumers to make wise choices.

Christopher Pierson: [00:11:46] And also add some clarity for companies. I mean, not all of this is on the consumer side. On the company side, companies are clamoring for certainty, for clarity, for a better understanding as to what they need to do, why they need to do it, how they need to do it. You know, dealing with the fifty states, dealing with - is it healthcare information, is it financial information? I have both, what laws, rules apply? - is quite confounding. It would be better for them to pay attention to their products and their customers than these humongous Excel spreadsheets and Gantt charts and, you know, governance, risk, and compliance systems that have all these laws loaded into it. It'd be better for there to be something that's more omnibus that they can actually point to.

Randy Sabett: [00:12:25] To me, it's a combination of risk appetite, or risk acceptance, and technical and physical and procedural controls, and the overall approach of the company when it comes to privacy and security. It's obviously - it's not a black-and-white bright line, you know, this is good and this is not good. There's a lot of gray in the middle. And we don't have a history yet, from an enforcement perspective, to understand what the regulators are going to do with these new laws, whether it be California, or if a new state spins something up, or GDPR. But I still think there's a lot of uncertainty, and companies don't quite know how to handle certain scenarios or certain situations.

Christopher Pierson: [00:13:10] There's no one, you know, product, service, or combination thereof that is going to protect everyone's data all the time. Period. So, we have to be able to live in a world where businesses are able to grow, able to be successful, able to be transparent and responsible, and communicate effectively with the consumers, and consumers can make choices based off of those different criteria.

Jason Hart: [00:13:34] I think first of all we need regulation.

Dave Bittner: [00:13:35] That's Jason Hart. He's Chief Technology Officer for Enterprise and Cyber Security from our show's sponsor, Gemalto.

Jason Hart: [00:13:41] There's particular types of market segments - so, financial institutes, federal agencies, health care organizations - which hold some extremely sensitive data. So, for me, having regulations, standards, around how data is protected is fundamental.

Dave Bittner: [00:14:00] But how are we doing? Are we overregulated? Or - particularly, I think when it comes to privacy, there's certainly calls here in the US that we need more attention here.

Jason Hart: [00:14:12] I think if you look at the demographics of the US, you have federal law, you have state law. And then within those demographics, you know, there's different regulation requirements. Surely, as a country, we should start standardizing and making it less confusing for organizations and businesses.

Dave Bittner: [00:14:30] How does GDPR serve as a model for the US?

Jason Hart: [00:14:34] So, the key premise around GDPR is about personally identifiable information, which, you know, captures a lot of sensitive data and types of data. So, for me, what I like about GDPR, and the way I look at it - it focuses on the data, the types of data, and then ensuring that the appropriate risks are reduced around data. I can look at regulations in the US - you know, like HIPAA, FISMA, et cetera - which, again, it's all about the data.

Jason Hart: [00:15:03] So, from a regulation point of view, let's just focus on what the bad guys are after. Bad guys want data. They don't care what type of data. If they can get access to the data, they're going to monetize it, and use it to make money to use to conduct to other forms of attack. So, let's really try and standardize on, right, if you hold these certain types of data, these are the mandatory requirements around the processing, the use of that data.

Dave Bittner: [00:15:29] Don't you think there's also a trust issue here as well? I mean, you know, you say the bad guys are after the data, which certainly is true, but I think there's concern here that the good guys are after the data as well.

Jason Hart: [00:15:42] Yeah, so the sharing and the ownership of data is nothing new. We can go all the way back to the Egyptians. You know, we have something called encryption or cryptography, and we then - and also, when you protect data with cryptography or encryption, you actually generate a key. So really it comes down to the custodianship of who has access to data, and who can control the data. That's ultimately what it's about.

Dave Bittner: [00:16:09] And we recently had California passing legislation when it comes to IoT and net neutrality. Can the state serve as sort of a test bed for these regulations, but then ultimately, for consistency, do they have to shift to the federal level?

Jason Hart: [00:16:27] I think the states, you know, being used as a test bed - you know, let's take IoT. You know, if you're in a state and you're creating IoT, there needs to be socially-mandatory mechanisms within the technology to protect the data, et cetera. I think it's fantastic. But let's look at it at a federal level. Let me - you know, let me take the UK as an example. I have three children. I have three boys.

Dave Bittner: [00:16:49] Mm-hmm.

Jason Hart: [00:16:49] I know if I buy a toy or a child's item in the UK, that it - it has a Kitemark. It's gone through various testing and it meets certain standards.

Dave Bittner: [00:16:59] Right.

Jason Hart: [00:16:58] So surely, from a technology point of view, new tech, IoT, going to edge compute, or whatever, because of the, you know, the world is using it or, you know, consumers are using that, surely there should be a fundamental standard to say, look, if you're coming to a market with a particular technology that is capturing data, generating data, you know, has sensitive types of data, there should be a minimum mandatory requirement that it's protected and it's controlled. And it's no different to a toy when I buy it in the UK. I know if I buy that toy, it's safe. It hasn't got lead paint on it, it hasn't got bits that my child is going to choke on.

Dave Bittner: [00:17:38] Right.

Jason Hart: [00:17:37] Surely we just take what we've done in previous lives, other industries, and apply that mandatory requirement to that new toy, being a technology coming forward.

Dave Bittner: [00:17:50] Do you see organisations being able to use that as a competitive advantage? I'm thinking specifically of things like security cameras, you know, where if I want to - certainly if I'm shopping - a consumer who's shopping, well they're going to - may go on to Amazon and find the cheapest camera available. But is there an opportunity for - if these standards are established - that that could be a competitive edge? To say this device meets all of the safety, security, and privacy standards that have been established by XYZ organization.

Jason Hart: [00:18:22] I think privacy for individuals is becoming a bigger need for the user. So if we actually talk about user needs, technology is evolving at a pace we've never ever seen before, and it's going to continue. From a demographic point of view, you know, that technology is hitting a generation - I'm 46 - where maybe not, you know - my wife, you know, she can barely use an iPhone, you know?

Dave Bittner: [00:18:42] Mm-hmm.

Jason Hart: [00:18:42] So there's the advancement, so there's a gap. So, for that demographic, we don't make it easy for them to understand security and privacy, or actually enable the ability for them to provide, you know, simpler, easier privacy controls and protection mechanisms. Then we go to another demographic coming from another generation who, essentially, privacy doesn't always mean anything to them. They're the social networking generation, where actually they tell the world about their life.

Dave Bittner: [00:19:08] Right.

Jason Hart: [00:19:07] So, from a technology point of view, I think we we need to make it simpler and easier for people or users to actually enable that additional protection mechanism. We need to do some things by default. And also, more importantly, which we don't see today, is actually give people the option to actually enable a higher level of security and allow them to consume it, switch it on in a way that they understand or can do easily.

Jason Hart: [00:19:35] So, for me, we have multiple personas of generations - people who get security, people who don't get security, people who, you know, privacy is not an issue. Depending on that demographic or that persona, the technology needs to map to them in a very simple way for them to consume and enable security control.

Dave Bittner: [00:19:54] Now, when you are advising companies on how to handle regulation - I'm thinking specifically of the potential uncertainty, because this is an industry, a world, that is changing rapidly, and it seems as though the pace of change does nothing but accelerate - how do you advise organisations to be able to plan for the uncertainty of the potential changing landscape of regulation?

Jason Hart: [00:20:21] Let's take PCI as an example. You know, so the objective is to protect, you know, payment card transactional information and credit card details, et cetera. So, ultimately the sensitive data around credit cards. So let's think like a bad guy.

Dave Bittner: [00:20:35] Hmm.

Jason Hart: [00:20:35] I'm a bad guy, and I want to target an organization which may be PCI compliant. I know that that organization is going to be doing - following the PCI compliance requirement to the letter. So, data at rest, you know, is going to have particular security controls, et cetera. But let's just step back and be very situationally aware. Let's look at that organization and look at the lifecycle of that data. PCI says you shall do X, Y, and Z. But if you slightly come out of that X, Y, or Z, are you going to follow that mandatory requirement? Regulatory requirements doesn't always prevent the breach from occurring, because the bad guy sits back and looks to the left and to the right of that regulatory requirement...

Dave Bittner: [00:21:25] Mm-hmm.

Jason Hart: [00:21:25] ...Or that standard. So now, as an organization - so when we go in and we talk about, you know, the particular regulatory requirement and how you apply cryptographic controls - my advice is, look to the left and look to the right as well. Look at that whole supply chain of where the process, the people, the data, and the technology is coming together.

Jason Hart: [00:21:45] Because what I see is organizations following regulatory requirements to the letter, but don't look to the left and the right and then have that situational awareness to say, okay, in addition to following this, what is actually the full process in the flow of that data? Think like a bad guy. Hence why we still see these breaches occurring, where regulation and standards are in place, but guess what? There's still breaches occurring because the bad guy is looking the left and to the right. Does that make sense?

Dave Bittner: [00:22:12] It does. So, is the notion that the regulations - rather than being the obligation, the complete obligation - that perhaps you look at them as being a starting point, the minimum?

Jason Hart: [00:22:24] Totally. And again, it's - I hate it. People say, we're, you know, we have this standard and we have this process or we have this regulatory requirement, you know, we're compliant to the hills. It doesn't always mean that they're - you know, they're susceptible, they're still potentially susceptible to a breach or an attack. And a lot of these organizations still are breached and compromised, because when they're following it to the letter, they don't actually look at the other broader risks as well.

Jason Hart: [00:22:54] And I think we need a slightly more open approach, to say, okay, if we're doing things right in the first place, you should quite easily meet the regulatory requirements anyway. So, for me, if I'm an organization, there's so much confusion. Do I go this standard? Do I do this regulatory requirement? I have to do this, I have to do that.

Jason Hart: [00:23:14] Why don't we just say, do properly, you know, protect the data, because that's all that the bad guys want. When you're protecting the data, ensure the appropriate security controls are there. And then, you know, just follow the basics, do the fundamental basics of information security. Think about the confidentiality, the integrity, the accountability, and the auditability, and apply the appropriate controls where required.

Dave Bittner: [00:23:37] Do you suppose people fall into the trap of checking off boxes? I can imagine the, you know, the legal department coming to the technical people and saying, you know, are we compliant here? Yes, we are. All right, check. Are we compliant here? Yes, we are. Check. All right, we're good. And then, so why are we spending all this money on this? We're compliant.

Jason Hart: [00:23:55] Compliancy doesn't mean that an organization is secure. At all. And again, this is false sense of security. Or, you know, we we've ticked a box. It doesn't mean anything at all. You're only as secure as the control you're applying. And that does frustrate me a lot.

Dave Bittner: [00:24:10] What's an effective way for me to communicate that message to my board of directors?

Jason Hart: [00:24:15] Great question. So, from a board perspective, they don't know the technical requirements, okay? Or the detail. So, if I'm a board member, I have a sense of responsibility to my customer base, my employees, and in addition, to any data that I'm holding on any individual or anything. On top of that, I may have some IP, some trademarks, et cetera. So, as a board member, I want to see a list of data assets in my organization. So, you know, when I go to sleep at night, I'm worrying, you know, am I going to be breached, am I going to be a target?

Jason Hart: [00:24:48] If I know what I'm trying to protect and why I'm trying to protect it, that's the starting point. They don't need to know about the technical detail. Some types of data are going to have a higher level of risk, or value, or impact in the event that that data is compromised and public. Once you know that, and have that visual map or understanding, you can start applying the controls to a particular level to mitigate those risks.

Jason Hart: [00:25:17] Wouldn't it be great if suddenly, as a board member, I was told, sorry Mr. Board Member, Mr. Hart, we were compromised yesterday. You know, straightaway, I'm thinking, okay, reputational impact, press releases, whatever. But as a board member, if I've gone for that process I've just outlined, my response is, go out, you know, do a data disclosure, a breach notice disclosure that we've been breached, but it was a secure breach. We identified the breach. The data was compromised, but the data is rendered useless because we're applying the basic security controls. The data was encrypted, and basically we still own the key, and that key is very, very secure and very safe. So the data that was compromised has been rendered useless because we were doing the basics.

Jason Hart: [00:26:04] This is called cryptography. It's called encryption, it's key management. People need to start applying those basic security controls. Cryptography and key management has been around for hundreds of years. The problem is, very few organizations are actually applying it.

Dave Bittner: [00:26:21] Why do you think that is?

Jason Hart: [00:26:22] People deem it to be very technical, very geeky, very complicated. It's not. We're in a world of technology now, where technology is simpler, easier to consume. If you apply the appropriate cryptography controls, and then do appropriate key management, all these problems go away, literally overnight. In addition to that, if you remove static passwords - if we look at 90 percent of all breaches in the world, it starts with a password. Let's eradicate the static password and replace it with a one-time password.

Jason Hart: [00:26:55] So my point is, if you start applying the basics, suddenly, as an organization or as a board member, I'm 90 percent more secure than anyone else.

Dave Bittner: [00:27:05] That's Jason Hart, CTO for Enterprise and Cyber Security at Gemalto. Thanks to them for underwriting this edition of CyberWire X. Be sure to visit to learn more about their access management and data protection solutions, and also find out about the Breach Level Index, which tracks the volume and sources of stolen data records. That's

Dave Bittner: [00:27:28] And thanks to Dr. Christopher Pierson from BLACKCLOAK and to Randy Sabett from Cooley LLP for sharing their expertise as well.

Dave Bittner: [00:27:40] CyberWire-X is a production of the CyberWire and is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity startups and technologies. Our coordinating producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our CyberWire editor is John Petrik. Technical editor is Chris Russell. Executive editor is Peter Kilpe. And I'm Dave Bittner. Thanks for listening.