Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies 11.11.21
Ep 1 | 11.11.21

Let's go to the movies.


Dave Bittner: Hello everyone, and welcome to a special edition of the "Hacking Humans" podcast, an occasional series we are calling "Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies." I'm Dave Bittner from the CyberWire, and joining me is my "Hacking Humans" co-host Joe Carrigan from the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute. Hello, Joe.

Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: On this show, Joe and I look at clips from some of our favorite movies, clips which demonstrate some of the scams and schemes we talk about on "Hacking Humans." And joining the fun this week is Rick Howard, the CyberWire's chief security officer and chief analyst. Hello, Rick. 

Rick Howard: Hey, guys. This is going to be great. I love this idea. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) It's going to be a lot of fun. We've got some fun clips to share, so stay tuned. 

Dave Bittner: All right, gents. I am really looking forward to digging into some clips here today. I'm going to start things off for us. So the way this works is we're going to watch a clip in real time together. We'll have a link to the clip that we're watching from YouTube. So for our listeners, if you want to watch along with us, you can do that. I'm going to do my best to describe the scene while it's happening. And then afterwards, the three of us will deconstruct what we've seen, all right? Sound good? 

Joe Carrigan: Sounds good to me. 

Rick Howard: All right. Let's give it a cry (ph). 

Dave Bittner: All right. So my clip this week is from the 1990 film "The Grifters." This is an American neo-noir crime thriller. It was directed by Stephen Frears, produced by Martin Scorsese and starred John Cusack, Anjelica Huston and Annette Bening. And both Anjelica Huston and Annette Bening were nominated for Oscars for their performances in this film. I don't know if you guys are familiar with it. It is a good movie, but it is quite dark. It's not... 

Rick Howard: (Laughter) You're not watching this with grandma? Is that what you're saying, Dave? 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Well, it's - I mean, it is an entertaining movie, but it is not a movie that has a happy ending or - I know, spoiler alert. It's not one of those films you're going to walk away feeling better than you did when you started. But... 

Rick Howard: (Laughter). 

Dave Bittner: ...There are... 

Joe Carrigan: So I have to say that - I got to say that I - Annette Bening is one of my favorite actresses of all time. She makes anything that she's in just lighten up and brighten and makes the whole thing entertaining. So I am thrilled that she's in it. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: And I - just as this as an aside, I was watching Anjelica Huston in - what's the Western they made? - "Lonesome Dove," OK? And she makes that absolutely fantastic. So I'm thrilled that these two actresses are in this movie. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. And a big fan of John Cusack, as well. I think that is what drew me to this movie initially when I - I believe I first saw this movie on video. I did not see it in the theaters when it originally came out. I think it's one of those films that did OK but not great. But over the years, its reputation has grown, particularly for the strong performances that are in it. 

Dave Bittner: So in this scene, the characters played by John Cusack and Annette Bening are on a train ride. They're heading away for a weekend together. Now, John Cusack's character is a small-time con man, and he tends to do one-on-one scams. And we pick up the scene in the midst of that train ride. 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Going to stretch my legs. You want to come along? 

Annette Bening: (As Myra Langtry) No. 

John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Want a drink? 

Annette Bening: (As Myra Langtry) No. 

John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) See you in a minute. 

Dave Bittner: So Cusack gets up from his seat, and he's heading towards the dining car. Seems like he's wearing his raincoat from "Say Anything" in this scene. 


Dave Bittner: He sees a group of sailors who are in the dining car. He ducks into the restroom here, and he reaches inside the pocket of his raincoat and he pulls out - it's like a sleeve that he's putting over his arm, sort of like an ace bandage kind of thing. It's - not sure what's going on with this. 

Rick Howard: It's kind of like an elbow pad. It's like an elbow pad. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, it looks like an elbow pad. Yup. Yup. Exactly. Then he pulls out a pair of dice from his pocket, and he sticks the dice to his forearm. So there's something going on here where these dice are loaded. Now we're back at the bar now. He has just poured a beer, and he's heading towards the sailors who are sitting. And on his way, he bumps into another gentleman, spills his beer all over everyone. 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Oh, I'm sorry. 

Unidentified Actor #1: (As character) You OK, pal? 

John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Yeah. Look, I spilled all your drinks. 

Unidentified Actor #1: (As character) Don't worry about it. 

Rick Howard: And then ingratiates himself to all these sailors who he spilled the beers on. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Rick Howard: So now he's going to become their friend by buying them beers. OK, so... 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. Heading back to buy them beers. 

Rick Howard: Yup. 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Four Millers. 

Dave Bittner: Now we're back in the original car, and Annette Bening is here. She's fixing up her makeup. And there's another gentleman who's giving her the eye. And she gives him a nice little smile back and shakes her head no, saying I'm - no, no, I'm not available. And he gives her a little smile. She gets up to head off to the dining car and walks away. The camera sort of lingers on Annette Bening's shapely form. 

Dave Bittner: We're back in the dining car, and Cusack's character is getting to know these sailors. 


Unidentified Actor #2: (As character) Never used it before. 

Unidentified Actor #3: (As character) You guys could have got into... 

Dave Bittner: Now, he reaches down towards the floor and pretends to pick up the dice that he's - that we saw him have earlier. 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Hey, one of you guys drop this? 

Unidentified Actor #2: (As character) No. 

Unidentified Actor #4: (As character) No, that's not mine. 

Unidentified Actor #3: (As character) I don't know. I wouldn't have taken a chance like that. 

Dave Bittner: Annette Bening is walking towards the dining car now. 


Unidentified Actor #4: (As character) Here we go. 

Dave Bittner: We're back with Cusack and the sailors. They're drinking together. 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) I'm buying. 

Unidentified Actor #2: (As character) Come on, guy, you can't buy every round. 

Unidentified Actor #4: (As character) It's like our turn. 

Unidentified Actor #5: (As character) Come on. We got... 

Rick Howard: Who is that actor? He's been around forever. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: Right? He's always plays a bad guy. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, he's one of those that guys. 


Unidentified Actor #2: (As character) Let's go, Junior. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: All right. So they're rolling dice for who's going to buy the next round... 


John Cusack: (As Roy Dillon) Told you I'd buy. 

Dave Bittner: ...And Cusack loses, of course. 


Unidentified Actor #5: You got it. 

Unidentified Actor #2: I'm going to hold that. 

Rick Howard: He's setting them up. 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. So he heads off to the bar. Meanwhile, Annette Bening is still making her way to the dining car. So now she's watching and sort of sees what's going on here. And she's sort of hip to the fact that he's scamming these sailors. All right, so he's rolling the dice. 

Rick Howard: And likes it. And likes it, right? 

Dave Bittner: Yep. 


Unidentified Actor #5: (As character) Jesus. 

Unidentified Actor #3: (As character) Take it away, my friend. 

Dave Bittner: So now Cusack is playing this dice game with these sailors. And of course, he's winning because he's got loaded dice. 

Rick Howard: The dice are loaded. 


Unidentified Actor #2: (As character) I'm not spotting you. 

Unidentified Actor #5: (As character) Come on, you guys. 

Rick Howard: That actor is Jeremy Piven. OK, that's the guy I was trying to come up with. 

Joe Carrigan: Is that Jeremy Piven? I didn't even recognize him. 

Dave Bittner: Rolling the dice. 


Unidentified Actor #5: (As character) Six. 

Unidentified Actor #3: (As character) Didn't have a chance. 

Dave Bittner: Winner, winner, chicken dinner (laughter). 

Rick Howard: So I just want to point out that Annette Bening has no dialogue in this, right? But the way she acts in the scene, it just adds a lot of flavor to the whole thing - all right? - just watching her react to what Cusack is doing. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, absolutely. All right. So that's the scene. Let's unpack it and talk about what's going on here. Joe, what do you make of this? 

Joe Carrigan: So it's interesting because it starts off with him making a mess of things, right? He - first off, he preps for the scam. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And then he goes in and he makes a mess of things and says, I'm going to buy everybody beers 'cause I just spilled their beers, right? 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. 

Joe Carrigan: So they're like, OK, well, this guy's OK, right? Then he goes, I'm going to buy the next round, too. And they're - no. But by this time, he already has the die. And presumably he has rigged the die so that when he rolls, he loses. So this kind of lowers their guard. 

Rick Howard: Can we just - can we pause on that for a second? 

Joe Carrigan: Sure. 

Rick Howard: 'Cause I have never understood the gravity and mechanics of a loaded die like that, right? 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Rick Howard: So he's got the armband that's clearly magnetic, right? 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. 

Rick Howard: And he's got the dice. Both die have - apparently have metal pieces in them, obviously. So when he rolls the dice in this scene, how is that making that seven come up every time? How does that work? Any ideas? 

Dave Bittner: Well, it's freaking magnets, Rick. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: It's freaking magnets. 

Joe Carrigan: I don't know. I do have a personal story about this, though. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah? 

Rick Howard: Yeah, let's hear it. 

Joe Carrigan: When we were kids, my brother and I went up to my grandfather in upstate New York one day. And my brother had, like, five bucks with him, and it was all in ones. And my grandfather said, hey, you want to play some dice? And... 

Rick Howard: (Laughter) Oh. 

Dave Bittner: Oh, boy. 

Joe Carrigan: And my brother said, well, sure. And he goes, OK, here's how this works. If I throw these dice and I roll a seven, then I win a dollar, right? But if I don't roll a seven, then I have to roll that number again before I roll a seven, right? So my brother goes, OK, fine. And he puts a dollar down, and my grandfather rolls and it's a seven. And my grandfather picks the money up. And my grandfather says, you want to go again? And my brother goes, yeah, sure. He puts dollar down, rolls it. Sure enough, it's a seven. And he says, well, what are the odds that's going to happen three times in a row? My brother goes, nothing. I'm going to put all $3 down. And my grandfather rolls a dice, and it's a seven. And he takes the money. And my brother notices that one of the dice is all fours and the other one is all threes. 


Joe Carrigan: Right? 

Dave Bittner: There you go. 

Rick Howard: So we don't need no stinking magnets then, OK? 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Exactly. 

Rick Howard: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: So I don't know how this works, but, yeah, my grandfather's wife tried to get it - was like, give him the money back. You cheated him out of that. My grandfather was insistent that he didn't do that. He's - no, no, he lost his money. 

Rick Howard: That's a lesson learned, young chap. 

Dave Bittner: He learned a valuable lesson, yes. 

Joe Carrigan: It should be a lesson. 

Rick Howard: That's right. That's right. 

Dave Bittner: We all learned a valuable lesson today, yeah. OK. 

Rick Howard: So in this... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, I mean, who knows? I mean, when he's in the restroom, he shows that he has two dice. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: So maybe one always rolls a one and one always rolls a six, you know, when they're within the magnetic field of whatever this thing is that he has strapped to his arm. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, and he's switching them out. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. You suspect he's probably good at sleight at hand - sleight of hand also, right? You know, he knows what he's doing here. But I also - I want to focus on sort of the social side of this, about how he's able to ingratiate himself with these sailors and make put them at ease and make them feel like he's on their side. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, and they're having a good time losing money to him... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...When they start gambling. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Rick Howard: And it's kind of like - you know, the only lesson I learned about grifters is what I learned from the other big grifter movie, "The Sting." When they get done with it, the victim has to think that everything was legit, right? 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Rick Howard: And so that ingratiating - paying for the beer and being sorry and - that allows him to get away with it at the very end of it. So yeah... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...That's what - that's the lesson learned for me. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. I thought it was interesting, too, that he pretends to find the dice on the floor, right? So... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...And he says, is this - did one of you guys drop this? And they're saying... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...No, no. I don't - so it's not like he was someone who carries around dice to gamble with. 

Rick Howard: Right. 

Dave Bittner: This just... 

Rick Howard: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Happened to fall into our scene. And, hey, while we've got... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...This, why don't we... 

Rick Howard: Might as well. 

Dave Bittner: I'll tell you what... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Let's use this to see who buys the next round of drinks, right? And then so he... 

Rick Howard: So one step more clever than grandpa... 

Dave Bittner: Right (laughter). 

Rick Howard: ...You know (laughter)? 

Dave Bittner: But then he loses that bet on the drinks, and he says, I'll tell you what, guys, I'm going to go buy this round of drinks, but give me a chance to win it back when I come back... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Right? Be a good sport. And that's when... 

Rick Howard: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...He comes back. And of course, the game is fixed, and he plays who knows how many rounds - we see two rounds in the film here - and presumably takes these poor sailors of their daytime pay, right? 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 


Dave Bittner: These are enlisted men, by the way. Certainly, an officer... 

Rick Howard: Yeah (laughter). 

Dave Bittner: ...Would never fall for a scam like this, right? 


Rick Howard: No, 'cause - you know, 'cause an officer would be throwing big dollars down. 

Dave Bittner: Right (laughter). 


Rick Howard: That's what would happen, right? It would be... 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. 

Rick Howard: ...20s and 50s, right (laughter)? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. All right, Well, that is my clip this week. Any final thoughts here, gentlemen? I think it's a good one. 

Rick Howard: I love that it's a classic con man mode - right? - in a different form. We've seen a bunch of these in the movies throughout my movie-watching career, right? And this is just another angle at it. And I - and they did it so well. I love it. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, yeah. Joe? 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I think it's a good scene. I think it's interesting. I don't know - if somebody comes up to me and starts rolling dice, I'm a little bit suspicious... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: ...But probably because of my personal experience with my grandfather, you know? 

Dave Bittner: Right, right exactly. 

Joe Carrigan: You know how that works. 

Rick Howard: Yeah, Joe. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Rick Howard: Yeah, you're not normal Joe, OK? 

Dave Bittner: Coming down a long line of dice rolling scammers... 

Joe Carrigan: Right (laughter). 

Dave Bittner: ...You're hip to this. 


Dave Bittner: Word to the wise - if you're one of Joe's kids and you're listening to this podcast, if he whips out a set of dice, don't fall for it. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Right (laughter)? 

Rick Howard: Yeah. Run away. Run away (laughter). 

Dave Bittner: Right. Not only is it a family heirloom, but it's a scam as well. 

Joe Carrigan: Ah, my brother actually got those dice... 

Dave Bittner: Ah, well... 

Joe Carrigan: ...When he passed away. 

Dave Bittner: ...There you go. 

Rick Howard: So they're... 

Dave Bittner: Well, maybe you could - did he win them in a bet? 

Joe Carrigan: No, no, he's... 


Rick Howard: He inherited them. It's... 

Joe Carrigan: He inherited them, yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...Part of the family tradition. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: (Laughter). 

Dave Bittner: All right. That is my clip this week. 

Dave Bittner: Joe, you've got a clip for us. What can you share with us? 

Joe Carrigan: My clip is from "Matchstick Men." This movie stars Nicolas Cage and Alison Lohman. And in this scene, there's another actress named Beth Grant who plays a lady in a laundromat. And in this scene, Alison Lohman walks into the laundromat, and Nicolas Cage is already in the laundromat. And Beth Grant is doing the laundry. So why don't we start here? 

Dave Bittner: All right. While we are watching this, I will do my best to sort of fill in some of the details of what's going on here. Here is the clip from "Matchstick Men". 

Dave Bittner: So a young lady's in a laundromat here... 


Alison Lohman: (As Angela) This taken? 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) No. 

Dave Bittner: ...Talking to an older lady. 


Alison Lohman: (As Angela) You sure? You've got a lot. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) This is nothing. You ought to catch... 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) ...Me during little league season - three boys. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Are any of them cute? 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Uh-huh. Simon's about your age, though you'd never guess. He's so hyper. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) I'm going to get a soda. Do you want anything? 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) No thanks, honey. 

Dave Bittner: She walks away, and something drops out of her pocket - a piece of paper... 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Oh, honey? You dropped something. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Hmm. Not mine. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) You sure? 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) You got to be 18 to play. 

Dave Bittner: ...Hands it over. It's a lottery ticket. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Oh, looks like someone put it through the wash by accident. It's yesterday's drawing. That looks like the 2, don't you think? 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Probably a loser. 

Dave Bittner: She throws the paper away. The older woman is gazing at the piece of crumpled up paper there. You can tell she's thinking about it... 


Dave Bittner: ...Trying to get the washing machine started, still looking at that piece of paper. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) We should at least see if it hit. Excuse me, sir. Can we borrow your paper for a sec? We're just looking for lottery results. 

Rick Howard: Oh, there's Nicolas Cage. There he is. I didn't recognize him with the hat. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Thanks. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Right. Nicolas Cage was there the whole time, reading a newspaper. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Yep, there it is. Are you ready? 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Yep. 

Dave Bittner: He heads over to the washing machines. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Six, 18, 30, 49... 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Wait, wait, wait - 6, 18, what? 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Sorry - 30, 49, 60. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Missed by one. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Oh, you're joking - story of my life. 

Nicolas Cage: (As Roy Waller) Any luck? 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Four out of 5 - can you believe that? 

Nicolas Cage: Four out of 5? Four out of 5 pays. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) It does? 

Nicolas Cage: (As Roy Waller) Sure, yeah. Call the number on the back of the ticket. Call it. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Well, thanks. 

Dave Bittner: So they're in a phone booth now. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) What'd they say? 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) We won $600. 


Alison Lohman: (As Angela) Holy shit - $600. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) Holy... 


Nicolas Cage: (As Roy Waller) A couple of winners. 

Dave Bittner: Nicolas Cage is walking by. 


Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) The woman on the phone said that all we have to do is take it down for verification, and they'll mail me a check. In fact, we should call your mom, and we can all go down together. 

Alison Lohman: (As Angela) You know, it's OK. I'm supposed to be home anyway. 

Beth Grant: (As Laundry Lady) No, no, no. We're in this 50-50. 

Dave Bittner: So next, we see... 

Rick Howard: I'm still trying to figure out what the con is here. OK, what are the - what's the - oh, yeah, here we go. 

Dave Bittner: They're at an ATM now. The older woman is drawing money out of the ATM. Nicolas Cage is looking on. All right. That is the clip. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. That's the scam. 

Dave Bittner: Joe, why don't you unpack exactly what we're seeing here? What's going on? 

Joe Carrigan: This is a fake lottery ticket scam. And the way this works is somebody prints up a fake lottery ticket that looks like it's won some amount of money. And then comes - they come up with some reason they can't collect it. And in this case, Alison Lohman's character can't collect it 'cause she's not 18, right? She says that early on, that she's got to be 18 to play. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: So Beth Grant's character is just being taken advantage of here. And she's being taken advantage of because she is a person with integrity, right? She says we're going to split this 50-50, and she's very insistent throughout the whole time. So the con is very subtle. Nicolas Cage is part of the con as well. He's in on it. And what looks like happened here - there's all kinds of different variations, like the newspaper could be fake or the ticket could have a number on the back of it where you call and there's another conspirator on the other end of the phone telling you, yeah, yeah, come on down to the lottery place and get your money. But it's also conceivable that that could actually be the legitimate lottery phone number, right? The only thing fake is the ticket. So the ticket is printed up to look like it didn't hit the big jackpot, but it hit a $600 jackpot... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Which is a large amount of money for anybody. If I found a $600 winner on the street, I'd be very happy. 

Dave Bittner: Sure. 

Joe Carrigan: And I'd collect my $600. But what's happened here is Alison Lohman's character, Angela, cannot stick around. She's going to leave. So the other character, the laundry lady, Beth Grant, says, well, I'll just give you the money now, and I'll go down and collect the 600 bucks. Of course, when she gets there, it's going to be a fake ticket, and she's going to be out the $300. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. So she's withdrawn - so what they've done, they convinced her to withdraw half of the winnings, the $300... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...And give that to her. And as you say, because she has integrity, she wants to split it 50-50. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: And that's the scam. 

Joe Carrigan: That's the scam. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: Have you ever heard that, Joe, in real life, scams like that? Is that a typical thing? 

Joe Carrigan: It's actually a very old scam. We had a story that we did on "Hacking Humans" about a year ago where I started doing old scams, and we covered this. It's - they've had things where they go out and they buy lottery tickets, actual lottery tickets, and then they print up a fake newspaper or they change the number on the back of the ticket so that when you call, somebody says, well, read me the serial number on the ticket. Yeah, yeah, that's a big winner. Come on in and collect your winnings. There's all kinds of different variations on this scam, but it's essentially - it's an old scam that is based on a fake lottery ticket. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. The thing I find interesting in this version of it is that they don't go for the big win. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Right? I mean, they - by playing off the fact that if you get 4 out of 5 numbers right, in this particular lottery instance, you still win some sizable amount of money. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: And they dial it in. So it's enough money that somebody could have that in their account. They could take that out and... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...And think everybody - everything was on the up and up. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, 'cause if you go for the jackpot and it's, you know, $1,000,000 jackpot and somebody says, well, I'm going to leave, give me $500,000 now - I don't have $500,000 to give you. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. I think it's - go ahead, Rick. 

Rick Howard: Well, I tell you, what always comes to me when I see these kinds of things is that, you know, crime - that's a hard job. OK? 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Rick Howard: In order to make a living doing this stuff, that's a full-time gig you got to do, and the chance you're going to get caught is high. So got to be high pressure, a lot of work. I'm not so sure I'm cut out for that kind of - that line of work. 

Joe Carrigan: No, I'm not either. I would... 


Joe Carrigan: I'd start sweating the moment I started doing anything like this. 

Rick Howard: Yeah, as soon as he walked over to the ATM machine, he'd be going, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't - I wasn't going to do it. I promise. 

Dave Bittner: Well, you know, it's been a long time since I've seen "Matchstick Men," so I don't remember the specifics about the characters, but it's interesting to me that the younger lady who comes into this laundromat - does it seem as though she is familiar with the older woman here, like maybe they've crossed paths before because when the jig is up on this, you know, she's going to have to get out of Dodge? Like, she's not going to want to cross paths with this woman that she scammed again. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Rick Howard: No, I'll take it to the next level. I got the sense that they had - you know, they had, you know, watched her for a while. She knew that that lady had three good-looking boys, right? And she knew about that kind of stuff. She - they had already marked her, right? That wasn't a random pickup, I don't think. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that was a fun one. Boy, we had a couple of fun ones this week. And for our listeners out there, if you have a clip that you would like us to consider for using on our special "Hacking Humans Go to the Movies" episodes here, you can send that to us at hackinghumans@thecyberwire.com. 

Dave Bittner: That is our show for this week. We want to thank Rick Howard for joining us. Rick, thank you for taking the time. 

Rick Howard: Every time you want to do these, I'm here, OK? Thank you, sir. 


Dave Bittner: Of course, we want to thank the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute for their participation. You can learn more at isi.jhu.edu. The "Hacking Humans" podcast is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies. Our senior producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our executive editor is Peter Kilpe. I'm Dave Bittner. 

Joe Carrigan: And I'm Joe Carrigan. 

Rick Howard: And I'm Rick Howard. 

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.