Conmen come in many flavors, all motivated by greed.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS")

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) I'll have a double turkey sandwich on white, a side order of fries, one of those large knackwursts, three bags of potato chips, a chocolate milk and two beers. Why don't you have a beer? Three beers. 

Dave Bittner: Hello, everyone. And welcome to another special edition of the "Hacking Humans" podcast, an occasional series we are calling "Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies." I'm Dave Bittner from the CyberWire. And joining me, as always, is my "Hacking Humans" co-host Joe Carrigan from the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute. Hello, Joe. 

Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: On this show, Joe and I look at clips from some of our favorite movies, clips which demonstrate some of the scams and schemes we talk about on "Hacking Humans." And joining us once again this week is my colleague Rick Howard, the CyberWire's chief security officer and chief analyst. Hello, Rick. 

Rick Howard: Hey, guys. Glad to be here again. 

Dave Bittner: We got some fun clips to share, so stay tuned. We'll be right back after this message from our show sponsor. 

Dave Bittner: All right, gents, once again, we've got some great clips to share this week. I'm going to start things off for us this week. My clip comes from the movie "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" - 1988 American comedy film. This was directed by Frank Oz, starring Steve Martin, Michael Caine and Glenne Headly. And the film is the story of a pair of con men, and they are competing to swindle an heiress out of $50,000. And Michael Caine plays a character named Lawrence Jamieson. He's a very educated and suave man about town, and his general scam that he runs is he goes around bilking rich women out of their money. 

Joe Carrigan: As you do (laughter). 

Dave Bittner: And Steve Martin... 

(LAUGHTER) 

Dave Bittner: As you do, right? It's what I aspire to. I always - my wife loves it when I say, you know, honey, if ever - if anything ever happens to you, my next bet is going to be on an heiress. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Dave Bittner: She just loves it when I say that. 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. If anything should happen to you, say, next Tuesday... 

(LAUGHTER) 

Dave Bittner: Right. Now, on the other hand, Steve Martin plays a small-time grifter. He's an American rival. And his character's name is Freddy Benson. And the whole movie takes place on the French Riviera. If you haven't seen it, it is a fun, fun, funny movie. 

Joe Carrigan: It's one of my favorites, actually. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah (laughter). It's a really good one. So do check it out. But this particular scene takes place in the dining car of a train. Steve Martin is sitting down to a very neatly set table with a woman who he does not know very well, if he knows her at all. Perhaps, you know, they're acquaintances on the train. I don't remember the specifics from the film. But, you know, they're not friends or anything ahead of time. And Michael Caine is at a nearby table watching the goings-on between Steve Martin's character and this woman that he sits down with for dinner. So here's the clip from "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels." 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Andre Penvern: (As Waiter on the Train) Good evening, sir. Would you like to see the menu? 

Dave Bittner: It's the waiter. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy) Oh, yes. Starving, really starving. 

Joe Carrigan: He looks very hungry. 

Dave Bittner: He's got the menu, reacts like, oh, these prices are expensive. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy) Prices, oof. I think I'll just have some water. 

Andre Penvern: (As Waiter on the Train) Water? 

Rick Howard: (Laughter) Water. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy) Yes. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Waiter gives him a look of exasperation. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Only water? But you seem so hungry. 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy) I'm saving my money for something special - my mother. 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Your mother? 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy) Well, she's not really my mother, actually. She's my grandmother, but she raised me. My real parents didn't want me. 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Oh, I'm sorry. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) But my grandmother is a wonderful woman. She has a laugh that can make the birds sing. But she's been quite ill lately, and the hospital bills have been adding up. I just want to do my share. It's kind of tough for me because I was never very good with money. I just seem to take whatever the Red Cross pays me and I just give it right back to them. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Joe Carrigan: I'm so moral. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) I am going to help my Gram-Gram. She is the one who taught me it is better to be truthful and good than to not. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Rick Howard: Words of wisdom there. 

Dave Bittner: Right. Yeah. And Michael Caine is hearing all of this and is unimpressed. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS") 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Waiter. 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) What are you doing? 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Waiter, give this man whatever he wants. 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) Oh, I can't let you buy me a meal. 

Nicole Calfan: (As Lady in Dining Car) Nonsense. 

Steve Martin: (As Freddy Benson) I'll have a double turkey sandwich on white, a side order of fries, one of those large knockwurst, three bags of potato chips, a chocolate milk and two beers. Why don't you have a beer? Three beers. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Dave Bittner: All right. 

Joe Carrigan: So Steve Martin at his best in this movie. This is - I'm a big fan of Steve Martin. I love - I've been a fan of him since I was a kid. I have never seen anything he's done that I haven't laughed at. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And this is just great because he actually is playing a pretty bad con man in this movie. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: And it's interesting how he - you know, everybody - the whole point of this con - or of this scene is this is an obvious con and this woman falls for it. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: And it worked for him. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: Right? 

Dave Bittner: Right. Well, before - let's talk about the con itself. So I think it's fairly self-evident, but I think it's worth touching on some of the specifics of the con. So what do we have going on here? 

Joe Carrigan: The first thing that happens is he comes in and he expresses how hungry he is, right? Ooh, can't wait to eat something. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And that is audible to the woman. And then that's - she is the intended audience of that pretext, if you will. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: And then he looks at the prices and he - ooh, I can't afford this. I'll just have the water, right? So he says that he's hungry, then he looks at the prices and says, I can't have the water and then - or I'll have the water, meaning I can't afford this stuff. And, of course, that opens up the door for this woman to come in and say, I thought you were hungry. And so that makes it seem to her like this was her idea, right? But it's not. She's actually being played here. And he then lays on this story that she, of course, then buys and buys him lunch. And that's the objective of the con is just for her to - or for - yeah, for Steve Martin's character, Freddy Benson, to get this woman to buy him lunch. 

Dave Bittner: Right. To get a free meal. Yeah (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: Now, Dave, you and I have often said that I'd rather be conned out of 20 bucks helping somebody who didn't need it than to let somebody go hungry, right? 

Dave Bittner: Right. Sure. 

Joe Carrigan: So, you know, this is not a big score for this - for Freddy. But it does raise the interest of Michael Caine's character. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Rick, what do you bring - take away from this one? 

Rick Howard: I love the way that he is slow and methodical and moral and good. And then when he finally gets what he wants, he just rattles off the menu item and there's, like, 20 things that he was ready to go with, right? 

(LAUGHTER) 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. Right. Right. He knew what he wanted. And he's not just ordering for this meal. He's taking home - he's ordering lunch for tomorrow as well. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

(LAUGHTER) 

Joe Carrigan: And he's grabbing two beers. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah, a couple of beers. I like the way he drops in there that he works for the Red Cross. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: But he gives all the money back that he makes. He just gives it right back, so he's such a... 

Rick Howard: Right back to them. Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. And then he says the lesson he learned from his grandmother is it's best to be honest and true. And she just - and as Joe pointed out, that's part of what they're doing here is setting up his character as being a bad con man. He does not have the level of sophistication that Michael Caine's character does. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. And as such, his payouts are nowhere near the payouts that Michael Caine's character gets. 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. I was going to say, this is not - I mean, this is right on the edge of being a con versus just begging, all right. So, you know, there's... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Rick Howard: (Laughter). 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's interesting, I mean, because he could have just said, hey, I'm hard on my luck here. Would you mind buying me a meal? 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: But - I don't know. I guess he feels as though he has better success with this. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: And it allows him to be a little greedier, too. Yeah. It's a fun one. And this - like I said, if you have not seen "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels," it's a real treat. It's a great movie. And you will definitely enjoy it. This is just the beginning of some of the things that Steve Martin and Michael Caine do together. And they are a great pairing... 

Joe Carrigan: It is. 

Dave Bittner: ...And also compared with - also paired up with Frank Oz, who I think - he's a good director for this sort of material. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. It's a great movie. I recommend it as well. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. All right. Well, let's move on to Rick's clip. Rick, you have our second clip this week. What do you have for us? 

Rick Howard: Yeah. This one's a little bit complicated, so I had to do some pre-work on it. So, Dave, just kind of roll the clip, and we'll talk about it afterwards. 

(SOUNDBITE OF SCOTT JOPLIN'S "THE ENTERTAINER") 

Rick Howard: My movie this week is the 1974 movie "The Sting," starring Paul Newman, probably most famous for "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" and "The Color of Money," where he won an Academy Award... 

(SOUNDBITE OF SCOTT JOPLIN'S "THE ENTERTAINER") 

Rick Howard: ...And Robert Redford, who was Paul Newman's co-star in "Butch Cassidy," but probably best known to our audience as the star of one of my favorite hacker movies, "Sneakers." 

(SOUNDBITE OF SCOTT JOPLIN'S "THE ENTERTAINER") 

Rick Howard: In this scene, we have four characters - the mark, the guy the con-man team is trying to steal the money from, the fake thief, the fake victim and Robert Redford. It's 1936 in Chicago, and the clip starts with the mark walking past an alley, and he hears the fake victim screaming at the other end that somebody has stolen his wallet. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Hey, you there, stop. Hey, you, stop that man. Stop him. Stop him. He's got my wallet. 

Rick Howard: The mark sees the fake thief running towards him with the wallet. And then Robert Redford just happens to walk by and jumps in to trip up the thief, who then drops the wallet. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Stop him. Stop him. 

(SOUNDBITE OF STRUGGLE) 

Rick Howard: The thief runs away, and the mark picks up the wallet from the alley. The fake victim collapses on the ground, and both Redford and mark run over to assist. Redford tells the mark that the fake thief knifed the fake victim in the leg and wants to call a cop. But the victim says, no cops. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Got my wallet. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) We got it. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FOOTSTEPS) 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) What happened? 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Give it to me, please. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Get you with the knife? You sit tight, old man. You need a doctor. I'll call a cop. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) No, no. No, no cops. 

Rick Howard: And he makes sure to flash a big stash of cash from the wallet so that the mark can see it. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) You wanted by the law or something? 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) No, it's OK. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Are you nuts, carrying a weight around like that in a neighborhood like this? No wonder you got hit. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Thanks. 

Rick Howard: The fake victim can't get up because of the fake knife would and then admits that he is a money mule for underground gambling. And he has to deliver the money by 4 p.m., just a few minutes away, or the mob is going to hurt him. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) I'm obliged to you. I got to get going. Ah. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) You ain't going nowhere on this leg. Let me see. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) I got to. I run some slots down in West Bend for a mob here. I got a little behind in the payoffs. So they figure I been holding out on 'em. They gave me till 4 to come up with the cash. They don't get it, I'm dead. 

Rick Howard: He then offers Redford and mark a hundred dollars to deliver it for him. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) It don't look good, Gramps. It's almost 4 now. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) I'll give you and your friend a hundred bucks to deliver it for me. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) I don't know. That mug that hit you is mad enough at me already. Well, what if he's around a corner waiting with some friends? 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) He won't know you're carrying it. Come on. You got to help me out. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Hey, I'm sorry, pal. I'm going to maybe help you get fixed up, get to a doctor. But I ain't about to walk into no knife for you. 

Rick Howard: Redford begs off. He doesn't want to get involved, but the mark takes him up on it. The fake victim gives the mark $5,000 in cash in an envelope, plus a hundred-dollar bill for his troubles. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) How about you? All you got to do is put it in the door slot. I'll give you the whole hundred. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Hey, what makes you think you can trust him? He didn't do shit. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) Hey, butt out, chicken liver. I gave him back the wallet, didn't I? How far is this place? 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) 1811 Mason. Put it in box 3C. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) 3C. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) You won't have no trouble. There's $5,000 there, and here's a hundred bucks for you. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) OK, old man, I'll make your drop for you. And don't worry. You can trust me. 

Rick Howard: Redford tells the mark that he needs to hide all of that money or he is likely to get stolen from him, too. And then he shows him how to hide the money, plus all of the mark's personal cash, in a handkerchief stuffed in his pants. The fake victim keeps ramping up the pressure by telling them to go faster. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) If those goons decide to search you, you ain't going to get far carrying it there. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) What'll we do? 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) You got a bag or something? How 'bout a handkerchief? 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Here's a handkerchief. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Here. Give it to me. Give me the money. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Just hurry, will you? 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) You got any more? Better give it all to me if you want to keep it. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) They think I've been holding out on 'em. My wife got sick, and I had to pay the bill. I wasn't holding out on 'em. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Stuff it down your pants here... 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) I always been good for the money before. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) ...Like that. Got it? 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) Yeah. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) But this time they gave me a deadline. Hurry, will you? 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Ain't a tough guy in the world that's going to frisk you there. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) Thanks. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Yeah. 

Rick Howard: And then the mark runs off with the handkerchief stuffed down his pants and gets into a cab. Later, when he checks the package to count the money, he sees that all he has is a package of tissue paper. Redford had switched the real money with the package of tissues when he stuffed it down the mark's pants - the $5,000, the $100 bill, plus all the mark's money. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Jack Griffin: (As Cab Driver) Where to? 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) Which way is Mason? 

Jack Griffin: (As Cab Driver) Twenty blocks south. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) OK. Go north - Joliet Station - fast. 

Jack Griffin: (As Cab Driver) Right. 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola, laughter). 

Jack Griffin: (As Cab Driver) What's so funny? 

James Sloyan: (As Mottola) I just made the world's easiest five grand. 

Rick Howard: With the mark gone, the fake victim and Redford run away. 

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE STING") 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Come on, Luther. 

Robert Earl Jones: (As Luther Coleman) Hold on, man. I'm fading. 

Robert Redford: (As Johnny Hooker) Come on. Hustle. 

Dave Bittner: All right. Well, that - wow. There's a lot going on there, Rick. And I have to say, I'm glad that you had your interjections there to kind of make sense 'cause it happens quickly. 

Rick Howard: It does. And there's - like you said, there's lots of moving parts in the - the first one I want to point out is, there were three members of the con team. You only... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...See, really, two of them. But the thief, you know, the one that took the wallet from - the first place, he's in and out quickly. So that's a third guy of the team that we don't hear anything about during the whole clip. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. So just - because it all happened so quickly, let's just review and describe exactly what is the scam here? 

Rick Howard: So, Joe, I'm going to defer to you on the proper name. I think it's called a pigeon drop, OK? But I'm not sure about that. What... 

Joe Carrigan: I don't think that's a pigeon drop. I think it's something else. But, yeah, go ahead. 

Rick Howard: All right. So here's what they do. It's basically, they identify a victim. They flash a bunch of cash around and say, please help me deliver this, and we'll pay you extra cash. And then they do an elaborate magic trick where they stick the money down the guy's pants but in the process switches out the real money - all right? - with a bag of tissue that the guy thinks is the real money. But in the process, when they do the switch, they get his cash also, right? It's an elaborate setup for something that probably isn't a big payoff. 

Dave Bittner: So it's really - essentially, they're using all of this as misdirection to be able to pick his pocket. 

Rick Howard: Exactly, right? And... 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Well, he... 

Rick Howard: ...The entire movie is all those kinds of things, right? And the - in fact, if you want to look at "The Sting," the big con for the movie is they try to do something like that at a very large scale. But they add another twist to it, that the mark walks away and doesn't know that they've - that he's been conned, right? So it's another tricky piece, right? So absolutely go look at this movie. It's really long, but really good - and all kinds of famous actors that you've seen in millions of movies. So I highly recommend it. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Joe, any other thoughts on this one? 

Joe Carrigan: I like - one of the - one of my thoughts on this. I was - as we were listening and watching the clip, it's interesting that they - that the writers and directors of the movie, the - you know, the production company, they make the guy at the end a bad guy, right? They say, ha, ha, he - or he says, ha, ha, I just made my - the easiest five grand I've ever made. Screw that guy. He can get shot by the mob. And then you don't feel so bad for him, right? 

(LAUGHTER) 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. But it also - it points out that he, like everyone, is easily motivated by greed... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Right? He - part of why he goes along with it is that in the back of his mind, he's thinking, I'm not just going to make 100 bucks here. I'm going to make 5,100 bucks here. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I'd sleep with myself at night knowing somebody got whacked because I didn't drop off - I mean... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Right, right. 

Rick Howard: Well, I want to bring out another element here, too. It's all happening in real time. This opportunity presents itself to the mark, and then the fake victim does his best to apply pressure by keep saying, you got to go now, you got to go faster, please go now. Please... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...Why are you doing so - it leaves the guy no time to think, and it... 

Joe Carrigan: Yep. 

Rick Howard: ...Helps him make a bad decision. 

Joe Carrigan: The old artificial... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Time constraint. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: The other thing that strikes me here is they stick this guy in a cab and send him on his way. So no matter what, they've got a head start on getting away from him, making a run for it because even if he's only just a half-mile down the road... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...The time it's going to take him to tell the cabbie to - hey, stop, turn around, whatever, chances are, our scammers are long gone. 

Rick Howard: And I think that's part of the scam, too, 'cause if we - the con is built so that the mark wants to get away quickly. So, you know... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Rick Howard: They've - and so that's built into the whole thing. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, absolutely. All right, guys. Good clips today. Lots of fun. We would love to hear from you out there in our audience. If there is a movie clip you would like us to watch here on our "Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies" specials, you can email us. It's hackinghumans@thecyberwire.com. 

Dave Bittner: Our thanks to the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute for their participation. You can learn more at isi.jhu.edu. The "Hacking Humans" podcast is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies. Our senior producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our executive editor is Peter Kilpe. I'm Dave Bittner. 

Joe Carrigan: I'm Joe Carrigan. 

Rick Howard: And I'm Rick Howard. 

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.