Tips from Grifter and Lintile for Attending Hacker Summer Camp

Sherrod DeGrippo: Hey, it's Sherrod DeGrippo. Come join me at "Black Hat." You'll see my session, "Unmasking Cyber Villains: How Microsoft Stays Ahead of the World's Most Dangerous Hackers." August 7th at 12:15 in Oceanside A. [ Music ] Welcome to the "Microsoft Threat Intelligence Podcast." I'm Sherrod DeGrippo. Ever wanted to step into the shadowy realm of digital espionage, cybercrime, social engineering, fraud? Well, each week, dive deep with us into the underground. Come here for Microsoft's elite threat intelligence researchers. Join us as we decode mysteries, expose hidden adversaries, and shape the future of cybersecurity. It might get a little weird, but don't worry, I'm your guide to the back alleys of the threat landscape. Welcome to the "Microsoft Threat Intelligence Podcast." I am Sherrod DeGrippo, Director of Threat Intelligence Strategy at Microsoft, and my guest today is someone who needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway because that's funnier. If you've ever been to Black Hat and wondered, "Who keeps this ridiculous network from collapsing into flames?" it's him and his crew. If you've heard stories of someone tracking down rogue USB sticks, mystery malware, or crypto miners at the annual festivities in Vegas, also him. He goes by one name, like Madonna or Cher. It's Grifter. Grifter's been running the network operations center at Black Hat for over 20 years, which means he's seen it all: exploits, shenanigans, zero days dropped mid demo, and the people who showed up already compromised. He deals with a massively complex, high-risk network on purpose, and then invites thousands of hackers to mess with it and somehow keeps it all standing, mostly. Today, we're going behind the scenes with the man in the fishbowl to talk about what really happens on the world's most hostile network, the secrets of the Black Hat NOC, and what it's like to be the designated adults in a sea of chaos. Grifter, welcome.

Grifter: Thanks for having me. That's a great introduction. I like that.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, I don't know you that well, so had to do some research on -- on what you're all about. I met you briefly a year ago, and I literally said, "Hey, nice to meet you. Will you be on my podcast?"

Grifter: Yes. You did. Yes. You were like, "You want to be on the podcast?" And I was like, "Yes, I'll do it." And, so here we are. It took us a year, but we got here.

Sherrod DeGrippo: You know, promises made, promises kept. That's --

Grifter: Nice.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- promises made, promises kept and a chicken in every pot. That's sort of my campaign promise.

Grifter: All right.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, let's start with some Black Hat and DEF CON stuff. How did you first get involved with those events?

Grifter: Sure. So, as far as DEF CON, I just -- I -- I started going, right? Like I was a -- a punk hacker kid and I'd known about DEF CON since the first DEF CON, but I didn't go to my first one until DEF CON 8. I was the child essentially when I first heard about DEF CON. And there was no chance that my parents were going to put me on a plane from New York to Las Vegas, nor could I afford the ticket. But then, when I went to the military, I got stationed out in Utah and Salt Lake City is a six-hour drive from Vegas. I still thought, "Maybe it's not a good idea for me to go to the largest hacker convention in the world while being in the military," but right as I was about to get out, I said, "Screw it, I'm going to go. I'm going to go to DEF CON and check this thing out," and that's it. I was hooked. I knew I was going to -- I was going to go to that conference forever, right? I had found my people. A lot of people say -- it's very cliche. People say, "I found my people, I found my home." But it really felt like that. I was like, "Oh, I'm going to do this until the day I die." And so far, I've -- I've kept up with that. So, yes. So, I just -- I started going to DEF CON. Met the Dark Tangent, Jeff Moss, who was the founder of DEF CON. He put me in charge of the DEF CON forums. And I was complaining at one point about the cost of Black Hat. You know, he -- he basically, Jeff created Black Hat because governments and companies wouldn't send their employees to DEF CON because they were just like, "We're not going to pay for you to go to a hacker convention." And so, about five years into DEF CON running or a little bit longer, he created Black Hat, which literally had mirrored speakers. Like, he just took the DEF CON speakers, had them do them in a different venue and charged, you know, $2,000 instead of $50 for a ticket. And suddenly governments and companies were happy to send their people. And so, at one point I was complaining on the forums about how expensive Black Hat was. And somebody said, "Hey, I know -- I know what you can -- you can volunteer." Russ Rogers actually did, who is a Microsoft employee as well. Russ reached out and said, "I know somebody. You can go volunteer there." And I said, "Great. I would love to do that." They reached out. I went out and did the Black Hat Windows show, which used to take place in Seattle. So Black Hat, we used to have a Windows show, and I think it was even billed as, "In Microsoft's backyard." So, I went out and volunteered for that show and they liked me. And in between that show and the Las Vegas show, they went off to Amsterdam. And the guy who ran the network for them at the time, good dude, but he I guess forgot a small detail, which was he packed up all the equipment for the Black Hat network and left it on the loading dock and never actually shipped it to Amsterdam for the -- for the show. And so, then he didn't do that job anymore. And they asked me if I was interested. They were like, "Hey, we really liked you out at the Seattle show. Do you -- do you want to run the network for us? And you can bring a team of people, and we'll pay you and all, whatever." And I was like, "Absolutely." And I was --

Sherrod DeGrippo: How old were you at this point? Do you remember?

Grifter: Yes, I was 23 years old. And it's crazy.

Sherrod DeGrippo: You and I are the same age, I think, about.

Grifter: We are.

Sherrod DeGrippo: We're about --

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- the same age. Yes. It was a good year, that vintage.

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: We are the same age. And when I was 23, I worked at the government, and I did get sent by my federal employer to Black Hat. They did --

Grifter: Nice.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- pay for that and they also bought us the add on DEF CON tickets. And yes, so there was a weird early time where some of the fed orgs were sort of like, "Yes, this makes sense. Like other partner organizations, other agencies are sending their people. We'll send you guys." And I went with a bunch of my coworkers. I mean, I think there was probably 20 of us that were from the same group. And they bought us trainings, they bought us briefing passes, and they bought us DEF CON passes. And I would almost guarantee that they're not still doing that today.

Grifter: Yes, I imagine that's true.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes. But I was one of those early federal employees that was there. It was great.

Grifter: See, there you go. As soon as this --

Sherrod DeGrippo: This was like 2000 --

Grifter: -- weird thing.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, like 2002 or 2003, I think?

Grifter: Yes. Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'd been to DEF CON prior to that, but that was my first time at Black Hat, and I couldn't believe. I -- it was -- this is when it was in Caesars and I could not believe the luxury as a 23, 24-year-old with my first grown up job, that this food and like, oh my gosh, it's so fancy. And I thought that was real, real impressive.

Grifter: I totally felt the same way. I was like, "Oh, the food's really good." And the -- like, there's, you know, all the -- oh, cool parties and these companies are like paying for all this stuff and all, whatever. And, you know, again, yes, 23-years old. I was like, "This is amazing." And I'm like, "Oh, you were impressed by hotel conference food."

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, hotel catering was like, so fancy.

Grifter: I'm like, now my palette has matured a little bit over the years, but you know. But yes, it was -- it was nice. And -- and, you know, Black Hat used to do some cool stuff back at that time too, where they did, like, ice cream on Wednesday --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: -- like at the afternoon break or -- and it was like, literally ice cream sundaes, if you recall. And then like nachos on Thursday and they'd have like these huge nacho bars and stuff like that. It was -- yes, it was fun. It was a good time. But, yes, it's very different, you know, today than to what it was at the time when -- when both of us started going, because we were going at the same time. You know, we're talking 1200 to 1500 people total for the US show, like the Vegas show. And last year's Vegas show was 25,000 people. Right? So, it's a completely different environment and experience now than it was when we started going.

Sherrod DeGrippo: And I think it's interesting too, because I remember my first or second time in Vegas. It was either DEF CON or Black Hat. I met Jon Miller, who goes by Humperdinck [phonetic], who now has started Halcyon, the very well-established ransomware detection capability. Still friends with him to this day after meeting him when I was like 23. And like, people like Jake Coons, who -- this was -- so I did work at Symantec later in my career, but there was a bunch of guys like the guy who created Nikto [phonetic] and Jake Coons dressed up in Symantec yellow suits, which, for those of you who are younger may not realize the deep symbology of Symantec at that time, which was seen as the enemy. Like, Symantec was the big corporate security hackers' enemy. And I did go work there later, which was fine. I worked -- I worked there when it was Enrique Salem who was pretty cool. But, yes, I met a lot of people back then that I'm still in contact with. Raven Alder, like people that I'm still friends with, that I still know, people that like, I work with at Microsoft now. People that I worked at Proofpoint with. So, I agree with you. I think like, you make those relationships, and they are extremely persistent.

Grifter: Yes, they -- they definitely do stand the test of time, I think. You know, it's the same way. Some of my closest friends come from Black Hat and DEF CON. And it's odd because you're -- you only see each other a few times a year because then, now there's plenty of conferences. Back when we were starting doing like, you know, DEF CON/Black Hat it was -- you know, there was only a handful. But now, if you wanted to go to a conference every week of the year, you could be at a conference every week of the year. But you know, you did run into people a few times throughout the year. And yes, you form these really, really strong bonds with folks because you're traveling the world together, you're getting up to no good together, you know, creating international incidents together. And so, yes. It's -- it's a, yes, it's a different kind of friendship. And it just, like, it spans continents, and it spans time. And that's -- I'm really, really grateful for that. It's been fantastic.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, let's talk a little bit about like, how those relationships are forged in the NOC. Okay, my first question is, "Why is it so dark in there?"

Grifter: That's me. I -- well, for two reasons, I guess. One is I just have really light, sensitive eyes. I know that that is like -- like, people think, "Ooh, you're in the dark, blah, blah, blah." I genuinely dislike the sun. I will go outside and kind of like growl at it when it hits me. I just don't like it. So, I wear sunglasses all the time. I don't -- I just don't like bright lights. So, yes, in the NOC, we keep the lights low. You know, there's a lot of screens in there. Like, we're -- we've always been that way. It's just been us, hiding in some room with the lights low. We've got a projector on, so we're projecting some old hacker movies onto the wall. We're -- we're playing music. There's, you know, LEDs all over the place. Like, it's just always been like that. And then eventually Informa, the company that owns Black Hat, came to us and said like, "Hey, will you please let us show this off? And like we -- let us -- it's really cool what you guys are doing. We'd love for people to see it." And I was like, absolutely not. You know, honestly, I don't want -- I don't want anybody looking at us. Like, no. Like, we're not, you know, this isn't a -- a zoo. Like, we don't need to have people come see it. It's -- no one's going to care. It's not exciting, you know? And they asked us for a couple of years, and then finally I was like, "Okay, fine. If you build a wall between us and where the attendees are, that's like, so they can see into it, but nobody can mess with our stuff. Like, nobody can touch anything. And we get to do everything we're -- we're used to doing. We're still going to have the lights low. We're going to have the music on, the movies playing. You know, our KNOC mascots are an inflatable sheep and a stuffed gorilla. Like, we're like, we're going to have all the things and do all the things we're used to doing." And they said, "Done." You know? And I was like, "Also, like, we fall asleep on the floors." And they were like, "What if we built you a little room and we filled it with couches? And then you could sleep in there if you need to?" Because we put in really long hours in some cases, like, Bart Stump, who's my partner in crime on the NOC. The two of us have been up 36 hours straight because the show has to start like, when the first training class goes off. And if the network isn't ready or we run into some kind of issue, it doesn't matter. Like, there's not time for sleep, at least not for us. And so, we'll be up all night long, and then -- and then it begins. And so, you can't stop at that point either. And so, it's like, "Okay, well, I'm going to go take a nap on the couch. If something happens, come wake me up." So, yes, we just do it like we always have. Like, we like it dark. We like the music. We like the movies. And it makes it feel like you're hanging out with your friends doing something interesting rather than just doing a job, you know?

Sherrod DeGrippo: I would like to put in an application to be the DJ in the NOC. I would like to do two DJ sets in the NOC. I promise, it's -- I'm really good. And --

Grifter: Okay.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- no one will get upset at all. Like, no one.

Grifter: All right, well, you'll have to fight Pope for that. But --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, I met him. I can tell -- he's hitting the ground. I'll bury him.

Grifter: All right. I'll -- I'll give him fair warning so he can start training before the show.

Sherrod DeGrippo: No, don't. Don't warn him. I want this to be easy one and done. Two hits. So, okay, tell me too, and I asked another guest this that's coming on later. Like, how do you, like, literally, physically, how are you staying up that long? Are you -- energy drinks? Are you special snack? Like, what is it that gives you the energy to do that brutal of a schedule?

Grifter: No. Yes, the only special snack is me. I just -- I --

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'll let everyone know that.

Grifter: Oh, no, that's a sticker. But, yes, so in reality, I have just always functioned on very, very little sleep. And it was something that, you know, even friends who are in the hacker community are like, "Dude, you're a freak of nature. "What's interesting about it is years ago, I did -- I -- I submitted to the pressure of finding out, like, you know, ancestry stuff. And so, I did like, one of those DNA like, ancestry.com. And it turns out I have a genetic marker for requiring very little sleep, which is wild. Yes. And so, it's interesting that it just so happened to work out that way. But -- but, yes --

Sherrod DeGrippo: That's crazy.

Grifter: -- on --

Sherrod DeGrippo: I've heard about that --

Grifter: -- average --

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- but I didn't know -- you can test for that?

Grifter: Yes, it's real. Yes, you can test for it. Yes, there's a genetic marker for it. And so, on average, I sleep four to five hours a night. And I have my entire life, like, since I was a kid. I just don't sleep a lot. So, I guess I'm bred for this. But -- but yes, I mean, there are times where the fatigue takes hold. I can, during Black Cat, essentially fall asleep anywhere. Like, there are pictures of me in the middle of the floor in the NOC, asleep, mouth hanging open. Like it's really attractive. Like, and people just walk around me. They're just like, "Oh, he's -- he's tired." Or I'll climb underneath a table and then sleep under a table for a little bit. And then once I've had, just a -- a little nap, then I can get right back to it. But I can still function at a -- at a pretty high level. And I guess in part that's genetics, and then the other is just I've just done it for so long and over so much time that I -- that I know what -- how my body functions and I can -- and I can handle it. So, yes, I get asked that a lot because it's also on top of doing the stuff for Black Hat, the stuff that I do at DEF CON, I roll straight into that. By the time I arrive and leave Las Vegas, so it's -- it's 14 days total. So, I spend two days in -- in Vegas, and I leave Black Hat, which is insane, and go directly into DEF CON, which is also absolutely insane. When I'm done, then I just climb into a little hole and hide for, you know, a couple of weeks, and rock back and forth and, yes, I catch up on some sleep and try not to -- try to just recharge a little bit. But yes, it's not easy. I'm also what I say to, or I call, or at least I say to people is I'm a high functioning introvert. So, I am by nature introverted, but I can be extroverted if the situation calls for it. But my default state is to -- is -- would rather be in a hotel room just watching tv, sitting on my laptop, rather than like out at a party or up on stage at DEF CON doing something or -- or whatever. And so -- so that takes a mental toll as well that I need to recharge from when I'm done.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, you mentioned you didn't want it to be like you were in a zoo, but it does have some exhibition style qualities. Do people tap on the glass or --

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- try to -- yes.

Grifter: A hundred percent. Like, I mean, thankfully it is a zoo. Thankfully, not a petting zoo, but people do --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Not yet. Black Hat 2026.

Grifter: Yes. Yes, I guess, you know, they -- it is a little bit because people will come tap on the glass and they wave, and they want to say hi. And so, you go out and get hugs and stuff. So, I guess technically it is a petting zoo. But -- but yes, literally people will come up and they'll look at -- we put monitors out -- outside of the -- out -- the glass so that people can see all the dashboards that we're looking at. Like, everybody has visibility into the things that we're looking at as well. As far as the dashboards are concerned, obviously they can't see the traffic that we see or the logs that we're looking at, you know, for privacy's sake. But when we're doing investigations, but for the most part they can see what we see and they have questions and so they'll -- they'll shout over the wall, you know, to say like, "Hey, what's this thing over here?" And we'll be like, "It's this," you know, and so it does happen for sure. It's also an educational exhibit. We're security nerds as well, so we love to have those conversations. They're great conversations to have. And that's the fun of going to something like Black Hat or DEF CON is that you meet people who are the same flavor of nerd that you are and everybody is excited to talk about the things that you are excited about. And -- and that feels good when you're used to, you know, spending your time in -- in the quote-unquote normal world where -- where nobody cares about the things that you think are -- are interesting. So.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I Would like all of my listeners to not tap on the glass, but instead hold large poster board signs that say things like "Grifter come out," and hashtag I don't know, something. I think everyone should bring a sign and hold it up in front of the NOC instead of tapping on the glass, like you're at a Bon Jovi concert.

Grifter: That'd be amazing. They'll see me. I'm -- I'm right against the glass. Like, Bart and I sit up against the glass. So, we just glance up and there's people either staring straight at us or, you know, taking pictures of us. And it's like, you know, "Here is a Grifter in its natural environment." Right? "Try not to scare it." Right?

Sherrod DeGrippo: You need a -- you need an exhibition placard. You need, like, a little, like, you know, when you go to, like this, you know, the reptile room at a zoo? And it's like, "See if you can find the Komodo dragon, who is definitely asleep and definitely not in view at all?" And everyone's looking around for it. You should have that.

Grifter: I like it. I like it. We'll get to work on it.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, you mentioned that you're in Vegas for two weeks. You mentioned that you're absolutely brutalizing your body by staying up for too many hours. Do you get to relax at all? Do you get to unwind? What do you do when you get to relax?

Grifter: What's -- yes to a degree. I don't -- man, that is a difficult question to answer, because relax is -- I do go to the parties. I do stop by the bars. I do those things. And I am meeting new people. And it is enjoyable. There is an enjoyable aspect to it. Actually relaxing, no. The only time, if you were to look at, like, I wear, like, an Oura ring, which is the, you know --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: -- it's like a sleep tracker --

Sherrod DeGrippo: It's a cult. It's a cult.

Grifter: -- and fitness thing and all. It's a cult. Yes. So, it tracks all my activity and all that kind of stuff. And if you looked at it throughout those two weeks, the only time that you don't see activity is the short number of hours that I'm sleeping. And then it's literally the only time I stop moving is to watch Hacker Jeopardy at DEF CON.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh.

Grifter: And that is where I put everything on pause. And I'm just like, "I'm sorry, I'm at Hacker Jeopardy." Like, the crew that puts it on, Lintile and his team are good friends of mine, and they are incredible. The showmanship, like, it's -- I sit and laugh and just have a great time, and I -- I will literally -- I block everything out to make sure that I'm sitting in the crowd to watch Hacker Jeopardy. And if like I said, you can, you can see it in the data. It's wild to look at the -- my movement during DEF CON and then just see that there is like a two-hour window on Friday and Saturday night where I'm not moving. And those are the hours of Hacker Jeopardy.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Well, a special treat for our listeners. We have the next guest coming up directly after you is Lintile, giving us a behind the scenes look at Hacker Jeopardy. And stick around for that because it was pretty fun and I asked him some Jeopardy questions, and you can see how he fared if you stick around for the rest of this episode.

Grifter: Yes, I love --

Sherrod DeGrippo: So --

Grifter: -- I love Lintile. He's one of the good ones for sure.

Sherrod DeGrippo: A sweet angel in a sparkle jacket. Any recommendations in Vegas that you think people should know about? Like, we'll get to the conference content in a second. But like any restaurant that you really love or any event or experience that's a Vegas thing that you really like? I've been going to Vegas for like 20-something years now. I actually lived in Vegas for a couple of years, when I was working for the government. And I feel like I've done everything there is to do there. And like, I like the Wynn buffet. That's like the -- the best thing in Vegas to me. Like, that's the best I can come up with. What about you? You seem like you maybe have a better answer to that.

Grifter: So, yes, so I've been going to Vegas quite a bit as well. I haven't lived there, but I might as well have based on the number of trips that I've taken there for different conferences. But also my time in the military, I would go like TDY to -- to Nellis Air Force Base and be there for a couple weeks at a time. I think if you add up --

Sherrod DeGrippo: That's where I worked.

Grifter: Oh, well, there you go.

Sherrod DeGrippo: It's such a terrible, unfun, suburban wasteland up there. There's nothing up there.

Grifter: It is indeed. It is.

Sherrod DeGrippo: There's -- there's some government buildings and an air force base and that's it.

Grifter: Yes. So, by the time I was like -- by the time I was 21-years old, I was already sick of Vegas. Right?

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: So, even before I could enjoy the things about Vegas, I did not care for it. But, and then obviously I've been going to DEF CON for 25 years, 26 years, whatever. Yes. And so, I have -- I've been to Vegas an ungodly number of times. And because I also am part of the show running Black Hat and DEF CON, we have pre-con meetings on site in Las Vegas as well. So, you take those 26 years and at least double that, if not triple it for the different on-site meetings for the conferences. I've been to Vegas probably nearly 100 times. My thing to do is to just get away from the Strip. Like, I will go find, you know, off the strip restaurants that are good. I don't do a lot of things on the Las Vegas strip because it's just --

Sherrod DeGrippo: It's insane.

Grifter: Yes, it's insane. It's not real. I don't like the fake everything. I mean, you have -- everything is fake, right? Like from -- from the quote-unquote marble columns that are actually just fiberglass that you can knock on to, you know, the -- the clothes that people are wearing from, you know, the guy in the -- in the mesh, you know, top to the girl wearing heels so tall she looks like a newborn baby deer stumbling down the sidewalk. It's like, you don't dress like that. You don't act like that. But for some reason on this street, everything goes. And I just -- I don't care for it. So, the actual parts of Vegas that are enjoyable are the food. Right? There are a lot of really great restaurants in Vegas. So, if you're going to -- and again, not just on the Strip, but off the Strip as well. And then also, I'm -- I'm a big fan of electronic music. And there are, you know, significant opportunities because of all of the residencies in Las Vegas to go see, you know, like, you know, Calvin Harris, Tiesto, Hardwell, Marshmello, whoever, like, you know, they're -- they're all there. And so, it's like music and food is -- the gambling, who care -- don't waste your money gambling. Spend the money to have a really good meal and get some good tickets to, you know, a concert somewhere or whatever. But, yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: If you're going to gamble, my number one tip to gamble, find me and just hand me the cash into my hand. I'll put it in my purse and I'll buy myself something nice. So, if you want to gamble --

Grifter: Yes, and you lost.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Well, but I -- I win, okay? The house always wins.

Grifter: That's right.

Sherrod DeGrippo: If you want to gamble, find me. I'm ready.

Grifter: Yes. I'm the same way. I just don't --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Or if you want to give me money to gamble, I will gamble it for you.

Grifter: Yes, I don't --

Sherrod DeGrippo: And I've done that quite a few times. It's fun.

Grifter: -- I don't have that bone.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'll gamble other people's money all day.

Grifter: Yes, for sure. Why not? Yes, it's their money. But I just -- yes. For my money, if I'm going to -- if I'm going to spend a few hundred dollars, like, I'm going to have a really incredible steak with an amazing view, or, like I said, see some, you know, producer or DJ that I'm a fan of and yes. And get to enjoy that.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I saw Morrissey in Las Vegas once.

Grifter: Nice.

Sherrod DeGrippo: It was my --

Grifter: Seen him.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I've seen Morrissey eight times and he only has canceled on me once, which is good -- which is pretty good luck. And that was --

Grifter: That's solid. Solid. Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: It's my first Morrissey cancellation this year. But I saw him in Las Vegas at MGM. It was really great. This was many years ago.

Grifter: Yes, but see, that's -- I mean, if you want to go see good music or eat something tasty, do that. But the, like I said, the fake Vegas stuff is just -- I don't enjoy it. I don't have a lot of patience for it. So, yes, I'd much rather just have a good meal, listen to some good music. I do enjoy too the -- if you've been out to that Area 15 where they have the Omega Mart.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: The Omega Mart is really cool.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Meow -- Meow Wolf.

Grifter: Yes. The Meow Wolf Omega Mart. And -- and that's cool because it's a really interesting, like, art, but also there's a game that you play through it as well that's very hackery. Right? Like, there's a lot of -- it feels like a DEF CON contest to go there and actually participate in the game. You could just walk around and look at the art and the weirdness of it and the -- how different it is and enjoy the hell out of it. But you also can go and spend time playing through the game, and that's really, really fun and challenging. So.

Sherrod DeGrippo: If somebody's never been to DEF CON before, what would you tell them? Give me three pieces of advice for someone who's never been to DEF CON. What do you want to know?

Grifter: Three pieces of advice for someone who has never been to DEF CON. My first piece of advice, and I say this as a member of the CFP Review Board, which is silly, is just skip the talks. Like, you can always --

Sherrod DeGrippo: That's a -- that's a spicy -- number one piece of advice from Grifter for DEF CON is don't go to talks. Okay.

Grifter: Don't go to the talks. If your friend's speaking or there's something that you just absolutely have to see, then fine, go support your friend or go see that thing that you just are so excited to go see. But you better be excited for it because there's so much other stuff to do DEF CON. Like you can watch the talks later on YouTube, but you can't participate in a contest later on YouTube and you can't -- you can't have a conversation sitting at -- like, you can go to DEF CON and walk up to a table of random people who are sitting there talking, and then sit down and introduce yourself and just be like, "Hi, this is my first time coming. I don't really know anybody. What are you guys talking about?" And nine times out of ten, they're going to be like, "This is what we're talking about. We're doing this thing, or we're working on this puzzle, or we're talking about, you know -- you know, what's actually valuable in information security, or like, the latest way to break into this thing," and you're off to the races. Like that -- that's the stuff, the connections that you make there that we talked about that can become lifelong friendships that are the things that you can't watch or experience later on YouTube. So, I do say that. It's like, yes, skip the talks, watch those later and instead compete in a contest, go to a village and learn a new skill, right? Like, go. If you go to the voting village, you have access to a bunch of voting machines that you likely won't have access to anywhere else. So, get in there and have people talk to you about why it's important and how to attack them and what the concerns are around them. Go to the biohacking village and look at medical devices that you can -- you normally can't get your hands on, or go to the lockpick village and sit down and learn a new skill. And there are people who are passionate about every one of those things. It's why they volunteer to run those villages and they're excited to tell you the things that they know. So, go do those things. That's what -- DEF CON has gotten so large at this point that it has become a conference full of other conferences. And you can do like your -- a choose your own adventure and make it into your own version. Like, you can sit and hack on cars the entire weekend, or you can compete in some contest that eats up, you know, your entire Saturday, or just wander around collecting, you know, DEF CON trading cards that SonicOS made, or trying to collect all the different badge life badges, you know, like, stuff like that. It's -- you can make it whatever you want at this point, and that's why it's fun. Like, you can find your area of interest and just dive into it. So, yes, skip all the -- skip the talks. Go to everything else.

Sherrod DeGrippo: If somebody has been going to DEF CON as long as you have, somebody who's like, "I'm an old pro. I've been doing this a long time," what would you tell them? What's the advice you would give to people that have been going for a really long time?

Grifter: To -- to be the person who helps that new individual. Right? So, if somebody's like, "Oh, this is my first DEF CON," and you'd be like, "Oh, what are you up to? What are you -- " you know, or they're like, "Oh, I'm new to security. And so, you know, I've been dragged out here by my friends or whatever. I'm not sure what to do," then to say, "Okay, well, what do you like? You know, and what is -- are you more defensive minded? Are you more offensive minded? Are you more intelligence minded? Like, what is the -- what do you love?" You know, and they're just like, "I don't know." And you get to kind of help them find the thing that makes them excited. And that's really rewarding as well, is just being able to be like, "Oh, let's -- let's make sure the -- the new ones coming in are having a really good time and, you know, feel welcome." I think that's, you know, sometimes the -- the old guard can seem intimidating, but really it's just a bunch of, you know, people who started out in the same place that that person is. Right? We all started not knowing a damn thing, and somebody helped us learn. And so, you can just be that person for somebody else.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I love that. I definitely agree that if it's your first time or you're new or you're confused, if you just make that very clear to people, that's exciting for others. It's -- I think it's something that people are so personally invested in that when they hear there's someone else who's sort of beginning their potential personal investment in that culture or community, they're like, "Oh, I have -- I have an opportunity to, like, shape the future and get somebody into this and give them the way that's, like, the right way," which I really like. I think that's -- there's a beginner's advantage that comes with it. So, you know, make it known to people that it's your first time. And then if someone says that to you, you know, it's their first time, give them advice or tell them where you're going to go or tell them what you like to see.

Grifter: Yes, for sure. I think it also -- it feels the same way as, like, you know, when -- when you watch a really good television show or you see a good movie or something like that, and you're like, "Oh, you should totally watch that." And then they're like, "Oh, I started watching that show," and you're like, "What episode are you on?" You know, it's kind of -- it's like that kind of feeling where you're just like, you love something. And so, when someone comes in and says, "Ooh, this is my first time. This is my first watch through, you know, my first run through of DEF CON." And you're like, "What have you seen so far? What did you like? What -- oh, did you get to this thing yet?" And it's like, "No spoilers," you know, but -- but, yes, so I think that same level of excitement of being like, "Oh, I hope you love this as much as I love this." And like, "What do you think?" Like, it's cool to see people who come in. As someone who's been going for a really long time, I love to see new people come in and tell me what their thoughts are. And they're like, "Oh, I love this. I love this. And this scared the crap out of me." And, or, you know, "This was annoying." And we get to take those things back as, like, staff and be like, "Here's the feedback that we're getting, you know, from old and new." But, yes, it's fun to watch people get excited about something that you love, regardless of what it is.

Sherrod DeGrippo: What about on the CFP board? So, you're on the CFP board for Black Hat and DEF CON. Correct?

Grifter: Correct.

Sherrod DeGrippo: What is something in a -- a proposed, abstract that gets submitted that makes you instantly interested? Like, what's a hook that always gets you?

Grifter: Again, it's about kind of excitement again, when you know that the other person is excited about what they want to share. And the abstract should reflect that. It shouldn't be dry and whatever. This -- the abstract is your elevator pitch, essentially, right? Like, you have the title and that should grab somebody. You know, leave things out, like, for fun and profit. Like, I'm so tired of seeing that in a title that talk --

Sherrod DeGrippo: That's like the title of every third submission.

Grifter: Yes, doing --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Hacking this or that for fun and profit.

Grifter: -- doing whatever for fun and profit. Like -- like, okay, enough already. But the title should be the thing that gets your attention. Like, you go, "Okay, what's this about?" And the abstract should confirm that, yes, this is something I want to go see. So, it's like, the abstract should make you want to know more. That's its job is to either, as a reviewer, want to make you continue reading through the detailed outline, all of the notes and everything else that the -- the submitter put in, but as the attendee, make you want to leave whatever you're doing and put your butt in a seat and spend your limited time at the conference watching what somebody's been researching. So, the abstract should grab you. It should make you excited about it. And if you can't see the person who did the research's excitement in it, how the hell are you supposed to get excited? So, I like to see when they're like, when you can just tell that they're like, "This is so cool. Look at this thing that we found," or "Oh, we really think this is going to make an impact to your security program." Like, that kind of feel in it is what you want. Yes, it should grab you.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'm on the review board for Sleuthcon and BlueHat Israel and BlueHat Redmond, the two Microsoft BlueHats. And you know, I'm such a Gen Xer with my lack of attention span and inability to focus and all that stuff.

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Like, I'm like a iPad baby before iPads existed and -- or a screenager. I'm still a screenager. So, I really look for like, "Can I imagine myself sitting in this talk eating popcorn?" Like if I can imagine myself experiencing this with a sort of edge-of-my-seat or stress eating or feeling anxious while I'm watching the person talk, that really is attractive to me. I look for abstracts that convey some sort of terror or freaky like freak-out type stuff. And I really also like people to get to the point quickly. So, like, I have a low attention span and I need to feel like it's a blockbuster.

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: The reality is we, especially in the threat intelligence world, but in security research, in vuln research, in like any kind of novel or new hacking technique, presentation or tact chain walkthrough or whatever you want to call it, there is an element of showmanship to it. You have to be able to capture people's attention because they have in their hand at the moment that they're watching you, the most interesting, mind-blowing thing in their life, which is their phone. And so, you're talking to a bunch of people that are holding the most interesting thing they've ever seen. How are you competing with that? It is so hard. And I have seen you speak at ShmooCon earlier this year and I thought you really brought a lot of emotion and interest and dynamic presentations to it. It felt, even though it was a really big, very packed room, it felt very conspiratorial. It really felt like you -- you and Pope were sharing secrets that you shouldn't be telling people. And so, I feel like you've really done a great job at that.

Grifter: I think there is a certain amount of -- to public speaking, you have to hold people's attention. It's funny that you mentioned the phone, though, because like that's how you can tell how good somebody's talks are today, is by if you look at the crowd, how many people are looking down at their hands because they're looking at their phone. There was a very interesting experience with that at DEF CON 9. So, at DEF CON 9, if you recall, they were the -- the badges that had the oil in them and the little, like you could squish them. And they had two different colored oils.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, it was -- it was like a kid's toy. Like what you would give to a kid.

Grifter: Essentially.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: Right. And so, you could squish these different oils. And then there were these little plastic discs inside with the letters could spell out DEF CON and -- and the little -- the DEF CON logos. Right? So, like the -- the phone dial, the lock, you know, the -- the smiley jack. And so, if you could tell a talk was good or not by how many people were playing with their Squishy badge. And now that squishy badge is in our pockets in the form of a cell phone, like, all the time, every day. So, yes, look out into the audience and see how many people are -- have their heads down and aren't engaged by the speaker. And that's why, like, when I'm on stage, I'm trying to actually engage the audience. Like, I walk back and forth on the stage. I'm making eye contact with everybody. I'm cracking jokes. I'm, like, the dynamic between who, if I have a co-speaker, joking with one another, doing whatever, just trying to make it something that people want to pay attention to, that you might miss something if you -- if you disengage. And I think that's important for speakers who if folks have so many other things they can be doing, but they came out to see you speak, then make sure that you take the time to give them what they came for. As you're well aware from being on review boards yourself, the thing about submitting to speak at a conference is you've spent a year, two years, three years doing this research, and now's your opportunity to go and present it to your peers. So, now that you're -- you're doing it, spend the time to write the catchy abstract. Come up with a more interesting title. Do a detailed outline that tells me everything that you're going to talk about. And if you struggle with that, think about what your PowerPoint structure would be and every -- every bullet that would be on it. Give me the details about what's every slide going to have on it. Like, tell me, like, what are you going to talk about? Great. All right. I need to know that so that I know this is what the attendees are going to get. You're -- you have stiff competition. We had 1,143 submissions to Black Hat this year to -- to the CFP. We --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, I got rejected, by the way.

Grifter: Did you? Okay, well, was your talk on AI? Because that's my issue --

Sherrod DeGrippo: No. NO. My God, no.

Grifter: So --

Sherrod DeGrippo: I don't remember what it was, but yes, I got a polite rejection. But that's okay. You can still see me at Black Hat. You can still see me there.

Grifter: I was going to say, I'll still see you there. So, with 1,143 submissions, we can only take about a hundred of those, right? So, you have a less than 10% chance. So don't think like, "Oh, my -- that means my research wasn't good." It's like, "No, you're up against literally a thousand-plus other people. And so, make it stand out." And then we're trying to create a balanced program as well, right? So, it's like, "Okay, if we have a hundred -- a hundred-plus spots and we have 20 different tracks that are all different topics on security, that means that we can take roughly six -- five or six talks for each one of those tracks. So, it's like, "All right, well," everybody wanted to write about AI this year. Of the 1,143 submissions, 335 of them had something to do with AI. They were either the primary or secondary tracks that people submitted for, said that it was AI. So, if we're choosing six out of those 335, it's got to be exceptional. It's got to be exceptional. And so, spend the time to come up with the catchy title that makes me want to read the catchy and exciting abstract that makes me want to spend the time to go through the detailed outline and read your white paper that you attached or whatever else is in there. It matters because you're up against some fairly stiff competition, and people will get upset about a rejection and be like, "Oh, they just -- they don't understand, or they don't understand the importance of my research." No, there is -- we know there's importance in it. We just don't have enough slots for all of the great stuff that's out there. It's literally why BSides exists, right? Like, BSides Las Vegas exists because there were people who were getting rejected from Black Hat and from DEF CON. And, you know, a group got together and said, "There's still good stuff out there that doesn't have a place to -- to present their research. What if we gave them the opportunity to present it somewhere else?" So, it started out as like a, "Did you get rejected from Black Hat? Like, send us your stuff."

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Grifter: That's why it's called BSides. It's the B-side of the cassette, right? Like, so you're not the primary single, but the B-side is -- is sometimes really good as well. So, when you'd buy a cassette tape or a record or something, you'd have the A and B, and BSides exist because it's -- I think it's -- obviously, it's moved away from that now. It's become this global thing that's in cities everywhere. But it's why BSides San Francisco is paired with RSA conference, because it was like, "Did you get rejected at RSA? Submit to BSides. Did you get rejected at Black Hat? Submit to BSides." And like I said, that -- that's historically where it started, but I think now people are just like, "Yes, it's a different -- different audience for BSides than it is for -- for different shows."

Sherrod DeGrippo: I think, too, like, talking about rejection for people who don't get chosen, something you should -- two things you should remember. Number one, everything Grifter's talking about, like, we have to put together a full picture. It's not just pick the best talks. It's pick the best counter-programming against a different track. It's pick, oh, there's like five talks on a very similar topic. Maybe, like, a lot of the, you know, conferences and submissions I deal with are threat intelligence. So, it's like, "Oh, we have 12 Russia submissions on the same threat actor." It's not necessarily that we're picking the best. It might be that we're seeing picking the one that's the most comprehensive or the one that hits on the most points, or the one that attacks this very specific niche thing. So, it's not just a simple, like, stack rank the ten talks that you're most interested in. It's like, make a compelling, varied, compare and contrast, interesting, on this side of the scope, really deep here, broad generalizations here. It's really hard because you're essentially programming a show for people for a whole day, and you want everything to be compelling and interesting. And I really think people should understand, just because you submitted it to one conference and got rejected, doesn't mean that you can't take that same abstract and submit it other places. Like, you put the work in, just like you were saying, you put the effort in, keep putting it out -- maybe refine a little bit, but keep putting it out there. And finally, the final thing I'll say on that is it's kind of similar in some ways to resumes in that we don't get hours and hours to pour over these submissions. We get to look at them very quickly and make decisions very quickly. So, the faster you can get your point across and the quicker you can make it clear what you're going to do, the better off you're going to be.

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Much like [inaudible 00:48:47].

Grifter: Like, I say, it should make you -- should make you excited in that abstract. You should immediately go, "Ooh, ooh, this is good." Like, you know, "Oh, I -- I think I want to see this," and then dig into the rest of it. It -- I, you know, as far as from a Black Hat side of things, like, you know, you -- you choose the -- all of us can't review 100 or 1,143 submissions. Right? So, you have like another group of people who that's their passion as well. And that's how we do it is it's like there's, you know, seven to ten of us who are trying to decide like, "Oh, what are the best threat hunting and intelligence talks or DFIR talks or, you know, malware related talks, that kind of thing?" And so, you've got a handful of you who are saying like, "Yes, this -- these are the quote-unquote best for this topic," you know? And then at the end of it, we all have to come together and be like, "All right, now how do we build a show out of this? All right, well, this one should be here and where in the schedule for this be? Don't put these people against each other because these are very similar topics and the same audience. They'll feel like they're split against this. Okay, these are different topics and they're both really popular speakers. So, let's put them against each other, so that it doesn't make this room so packed that nobody can get into it." Right? That kind of thing. So -- so, yes, the board is thinking about more things than just like, "Is this a good talk?" It's also like, "How do we -- how do we create a really compelling show across the board, across all these tracks? How do we schedule them around each other, so that -- so that people feel like every hour that they're there, they can find something that's exciting?" You know, "How do you have a good mix of things that are just academic and research based versus stunt hacking?" Right? Like sometimes people are like, "Oh, I don't like -- oh, that's stunt hacking." Good. Like when did we --

Sherrod DeGrippo: I love stunt hacking.

Grifter: -- stop liking stunt hacking?

Sherrod DeGrippo: I love that stuff. Yes, I love that. I love a -- a wild talk and I won't name any names, but I have been to quite a few, starting very early in my career, quite a few of the big controversial scandal talks. And sometimes those can be quite memorable. So, my advice is, when you're looking through that schedule, whether it's Black Hat or DEF CON, if you're looking to really have some memories, find the ones that maybe seem like somebody's employer told them they weren't allowed to give that talk, or maybe find the ones that look like they might have something explosive. Find the ones that maybe include mysticism and numerology. I've seen some of those that are quite interesting as well, so --

Grifter: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- check them out.

Grifter: It's wild to see the differences on things. And I think you made a point earlier about, you know, like submitting to other conferences and stuff, too. Even if you get accepted, submit your stuff to other conferences. Like, I -- I used to be in my early career, every time I was speaking at a conference or submitted to another conference, I'd write a new talk and it just was -- it just got harder and harder to do. And it was actually -- it was actually Jayson Street who said to me, he's like, "No, man. Like, you write a talk and then you submit it to anywhere that you want to go, you know, like, where you'd like to speak for like a year." And he's like, "And then just add it to your like, index of talks that you can give." He's like, "But just because you spoke about it at DEF CON, doesn't mean that you can't speak about it at like, you know, 44CON in London or you know, BSides Berlin or some -- whatever, like anywhere else that you want to go. Those people might not have been in the audience and if they already saw you speak at DEF CON, they can skip your talk and go to a different one." But he's just like, "Yes, you did the research. Go share it with as many people as you can." So, go submit it all over the world. And you know, it's a great way to reach different people in different regions and also see how different people respond to it. And it makes you a better speaker when you realize like, "Oh, okay, like, here's the feedback I got here versus here, and let me incorporate that into the next thing that I write." And so, yes, don't feel like because you did get accepted too, that it doesn't mean that you can't also submit it to other conferences as well.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, one last question, Grifter. What do you think people should really do at DEF CON? Like, what's something you think is pretty cool to do?

Grifter: Well, all right, it's super self-serving because I am the department lead for contests and events. But I think that -- that that's what people should be doing is like go enjoy the events but also compete in the contests. Like, going and finding a contest will force you to learn skills that you either have -- have just started developing or are interested in doing and you find ones that require those, and it gives you the motivation to level up essentially. Right? Like, so I used to compete in a contest that happened, you know, years ago that was called the Mystery Challenge that Lost put on, and it incorporated all different types of -- of skills and hacking and there were things where I was like, "Ooh, I'm falling short on that. I have to prep before next year and be ready to come back," you know? And I'd spend all year like working on and trying to develop skills that I thought would make me a better competitor in that challenge specifically. And it became kind of an obsession, but it made me a better hacker, like, because I had something to push me. Yes, it's -- ultimately, it led to me -- I -- I won three black badges because of, you know, competing in the contest at DEF CON. And, so.

Sherrod DeGrippo: You have three black badges.

Grifter: Yes. Yes, so.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot.

Grifter: It is. It is. It's a fair number. Yes, it's cool. Like a black badge gets you, for those who don't know, a black badge at DEF CON gets you free entry to DEF CON for life. It means that you competed in a contest that was significantly -- a difficulty that was significant enough that you -- you earn that reward. We only give out, essentially, it's -- we give them out for the -- the main CTF and then eight contests a year out of the 80 contests that we have year over year. And they switch, they rotate through different contests, so you never really know, like, "Oh, am I going to get a black badge from this or not?" Because you should be competing because you're passionate about the contest and the subject matter that that contest is around. But yes, so I have -- I have 3x DEF CON entry for life, which is silly because I've already been a goon for 24 years and once you've been a goon for 10 years, you get free entry to DEF CON for life. So, I guess with 24 years, I have -- I have two lifetime entries to DEF CON and then three -- so, five lifetimes worth of free entry to DEF CON for me. Yay.

Sherrod DeGrippo: The afterlife is full of trips to Vegas for you.

Grifter: Indeed. Indeed. Yes. But -- but yes, go out there and do those things. Compete in the contests. Force yourself to level up your skills. Meet really cool people. Some of the people I met, as we talked about earlier, some of the people I met competing in those contests have become lifelong friends. There are guys that we were battling it out like viciously for -- in -- in some of the -- the contests at like DEF CON 15, 16, 17, 18 or whatever that -- that now I -- I play D and D with. They're part of my -- my D and D crew. But we were competitors in the contest then. So, yes, life -- lifelong friends. So, yes, get out there, do those things.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, just final instructions for everyone. You're going to make big poster board signs to hold up in front of the NOC in -- in -- in lieu of tapping on glass. And you are going to go to DEF CON and go play a contest and say hello to Grifter there.

Grifter: I'll be there. I'll be the guy in black.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I also wear black all the time. Grifter, thank you so much for joining the podcast. It was great talking to you. I'm super excited about going to Vegas this year and seeing you there.

Grifter: Yes, I'll see you there. Thanks for having me. [ Music ]

Sherrod DeGrippo: Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the "Microsoft Threat Intelligence Podcast." I am Sherrod DeGrippo, Director of Threat Intelligence Strategy here at Microsoft and I'm joined by an outsider. We don't normally get non-Microsoft guests on the podcast, so if you're interested, call me. We'd love to have people outside of Microsoft, but I have someone quite well-known here, Lintile of Hacker Jeopardy hosting fame, amongst other, amongst other game shows. Lintile, thanks for being here.

Lintile: I am so excited to be here, Sherrod.

Sherrod DeGrippo: We are very happy to have you. And look, I want to get down and dirty and learn all of the behind-the-scenes secrets of Hacker Jeopardy. And I specifically did not do a lot of research about this because I want you to tell me and the audience about what you do. So, like, if somebody isn't familiar with DEF CON and conferences and hacker stuff, how would you describe what you do?

Lintile: Well, there's probably a little bit of a content warning that should go before any of these things, but --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay, we have a bleep button. We got a bleep button, because of Andrew Morris from GreyNoise. So --

Lintile: Well, hopefully we won't need it today.

Sherrod DeGrippo: It's there if we need it.

Lintile: It is. I'm glad to know that. I feel much more comfortable. But Hacker Jeopardy is the largest event at DEF CON, overall. It's a staged game show with a number of contestants, pretty deep history of shenanigans, and quite frankly, the little known secret is that you'll probably end up learning something because we do actually include a lot of good content about, you know, not only some of the history of some of the technology that is central to what we do as a living, but also doing it in such a way that is mimetic and it's remembering some of the things that you'll never forget. Like, if you don't go to Hacker Jeopardy and you don't know what port Telnet runs on, well, I can guarantee you're probably going to remember it at the end of the day. It all started way back in early days of DEF CON. Jeff Moss approached Winn Schwartau and said, "Hey, we need to do an event." For those of you that may not know who Winn Schwartau is, he's one of the original thinkers behind, not only sort of risk and approaching it from a very analog, different perspective that a lot of us, you know, do in our daily day to -- day-to-day basis. Basically, the idea here is that we play a game of Jeopardy and it's a fair use parody of course, but we have teams of three which compete in front of everybody at DEF CON, handling a number of different categories in a wide range of not only hard tech, but also some of the culture that surrounds our environment.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Well, can I tell you my Hacker Jeopardy story?

Lintile: Obviously.

Sherrod DeGrippo: You don't have a choice. It's my podcast. So, I -- I think I've told you this before, but it's kind of strange to admit. I have only been to Hacker Jeopardy once and it was this most recent year. It was 2024. That was my first and only time because every freaking time I tried to go to Hacker Jeopardy, there was a line around the darn block and I was like, "I'm not waiting in that line and I'm not going to be able to get into Hacker Jeopardy," because it, in the olden days, it would fill up and they would not let any more people in. So, I kind of started giving up.

Lintile: Well, I mean there is that aspect. It is probably one of the more electric shows that you're going to see at DEF CON. And you're absolutely right. Every year, usually get the opportunity to sort of put pump the lineup that is waiting outside of the venue. And that's one of my personal favorite elements, getting to scream the show's catchphrase, which you may need the -- the bleep button for. But the bottom line is that there's an electricity in the room. And although, you know, you may have seen clips of it on the Internet or -- or --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, no.

Lintile: -- watching from your hotel room, because it is on DCTV, the DEF CON broadcasting service that you can get in the -- most of the hotels around the area. The problem is, is that you're never going to feel that, you know, sort of electricity more than just sitting there in the audience.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I was lucky this year, most recently because a friend of mine was like, "Yes, we have seats. You can sit with us. We get right in, no problem." Some goon privileges were used, which was great for me. So, I was like right in the front for my first time. And I have to say, for those of you who have not been, first of all, LVCC, Las Vegas Convention Center, has room for everyone. It pretty much has room for everyone.

Lintile: It has been a great move for that staff. Absolutely. Very much has enjoyed the larger venues and strangely enough, we seem to fill it up about every time.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, it is packed. It's -- there's room for everyone, but it's packed. And yes, the environment is super excited. People dress up in crazy costumes, they've got signs, they've got beach balls. It's screaming and crying and it's Vegas. So, there's a lot of sweating. It's quite the experience that I really encourage everyone to come to live. So, I have some more questions about -- I have a lot of questions, actually. A lot of questions for you in general, but let's start with Hacker Jeopardy. So, do you kind of feel like there's going to be a crazy moment no matter what?

Lintile: So, I don't say this too a lot, but I mean, obviously with the Threat Intelligence Podcast here, I've got to drop some of the details.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, let us in there.

Lintile: One of the things that I always aim at as -- so first and foremost, this is not just the Lintile show. Let me make that super clear right off the bat. We have a full team of people that help do the production, do all of the staging, and quite frankly work logistics almost year-round on Hacker Jeopardy. There's a lot of work that goes behind the scenes, but from the writing and content aspect, really the big lesson that I learned a long time ago is that if I give opportunity for our hackers to take a concept and run with it, or quite frankly fall into some of the tricky traps that we lay with our content and our questions and answers, it's almost inevitable that more than one of them is going to happen in every show. It's just -- there's an element of social engineering that goes into it and we use misdirection with the clues. We try to create patterns that quite frankly, the human brain is just a little bit -- a little bit struck by from time to time. We've never had a show that didn't have at least one shenanigans. Some of them are the ones that we planned. Now, now, I'll make that clear. But a lot of them are not.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Shenanigan sabotage. Let me ask you, are there any moments that stand out to you that are unhinged? I've only been to Hacker Jeopardy once, and I have several. So, I can imagine doing this for years, are there any moments that stand out to you that you're like, "Well, that was crazy?"

Lintile: Yes, I mean, this is unfortunately a recurring concept, but the team in the lead at the end of the game that just simply neglects to put their final response in the form of a question, many times with getting the answer completely correct, it's just one of those things that in the moment, human nature. You're so excited that, "I've got the answer. I wagered enough." And then writing two simple words like, "What is" or "Who is" on the paper just doesn't happen. And so, the audience has gotten to share in those moments. And -- and quite frankly, it's come down to changing the outcome of the game. Anytime that happens, obviously, I'm -- I'm sad to see it because -- and you know, in -- in recent years, that has even meant the loss of a black badge to DEF CON, an uber badge for permanent lifetime access for any of the people on here that haven't heard of that. But that's primarily the first thing that I think of when it comes to the shenanigans. The other thing is that I really think that the energy that some of the teams have come up with lately, specifically one team comes to mind being dressed as panda bears that came up and some of the costumes and the way they throw themselves headlong into it. Hacker Jeopardy is kind of a spectator sport. You know, you've got people in the community that are giving of themselves to come on stage and essentially, you know, subject themselves to our caprice and whimsy, but all for the benefit and entertainment of the community. And so, we've had a lot of people that have gotten lifetime notoriety or recognizability in the -- in the -- in the community just because of their appearance on Hacker Jeopardy.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'm pretty close friends with Andy Piazza. And he really topped off the night last year by ripping his shirt off and I think dumping various cans of beverages all over himself. And as I mentioned, I was in the second row. So, not only was I in the splash zone, I got some really, really great pictures, which I'm happy to share. And I constantly do text in group texts that include him. Talking about the community, I want to ask you from your point of view, from doing this, as Lintile, as Hacker Jeopardy host and producer and visionary, spiritual guide, whatever you want to call it, tell me what the hacker community is from your point of view, from doing these things.

Lintile: For me, it's always been about connection. Even back to my early days of being an IRC in USENet and some of these more esoteric things of days gone by, the -- realizing that there's someone out there that has even sort of a similar point of view to yours, seeing things beyond the pale, seeing that there's more to the superficial world that is around us, even now, that is one of the most valuable things that I find in our community is just seeing beyond what other people don't see. And that sometimes manifests in the different disciplines that we see outlined perfectly in the villages all around DEF CON. If you haven't been to, you know, one of the villages, pick one, learn how to lock pick, go social engineer, go, you know, find something that you had no idea there was so much depth to the study and manipulation of. But that connection and being able to discuss it in arbitrary levels of technical depth. I can remember so many conversations where I'm talking about esoteric technical details that are deep in like the pe cough spec, or we're talking about how relocations work in this binary. And, you know, that immediate connection, that immediate recognition of, like, thought processes, is -- is really something that is -- is rarefied. And having that all at DEF CON, it's almost like I -- I go back and forth about what the most valuable part of the conference is, but in general, I always pick the connections first. Yes, there's amazing talks, there's awesome opportunities to engage in any wide range of contests, but taking the time to -- to talk to people and taking the time for yourself to be open and -- and receptive to those conversations, for me is -- is really what the community is manifested in.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I love that. And I completely agree about the esoteric technical knowledge because I'll tell you, you know, as I said, I've only been once, but I knew everybody on stage, so I know what, like as an example, Maurer Jake [phonetic], I know basically what he knows. I don't know the content of what he knows, but I know the context of what he knows. Like, I know his specialties. I know Piazza's specialties. Evil Mog [phonetic]. Like, I kind of know what they're into. And so, when certain answers would come up and they would need to come up with the questions, I would be able to say like, "Oh, I know he knows this one." And then you could see on their face like, "Oh God, I know it, but I don't know it exactly," or "I don't know it in order. Oh, oh, oh." And it really is like -- it is a brutal rain gauntlet for some of these people pulling from like the depths of their knowledge, maybe when they were like in school or just starting out. It's fascinating to see super smart people struggle with like these really hard things.

Lintile: There's a couple of parts there to unpack because first and foremost, I think just by virtue of being in front of 3 or 4,000 screaming DEF CON --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: -- humans --

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- can't help, can't be helpful.

Lintile: -- yes. The thing -- the thing you knew and that you might be able to recite to me, you know, talking -- talking just on the street, just evaporates from your consciousness in those moments. But also, you come up with a really interesting point is that I think that there's a lesson in this. And I hate to be the life coach guy a little bit, but there's a lesson in this.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, I love it. The audience -- the audience needs a little life coaching. I'll tell you.

Lintile: That no one person ever has all the answers. And I think that's a big part of Hacker Jeopardy, and why we've always kept it as a team of three people. Because, you know, although Jake and Evil Mog and all of these people --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Do they count just as one Gs?

Lintile: I mean, you know, some -- some of them, I might question that. And I'm talking to you, Mog. But in any case, the point is, is that you have to have a well-rounded team and that -- that lesson transfers just to about everything in life.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, I love that. And I think you can really see it played out when you watch the game. Okay, so that's the players and the contestants. And let's talk a little bit about the host.

Lintile: Sure.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Where does this energy come from? And I mean spiritually, you as a person and literally what are you fueling your body with? Where is the energy coming from?

Lintile: Well, anybody that knows me knows that energy has been never a -- a waning resource. I have always had the take leadership and make that dynamic bone in my body. So, from that perspective, I don't need augmentation of anything else. I mean, obviously, you'll -- you'll see me holding a beverage or two as -- as part of the showmanship. But it is a persona. One of the things that I think a lot of people you know always expect me to be the person that's on stage at all times. I -- although I can flip into it very easily, it is something that is not natural to me. I -- I am generally not a jerk, I guess is the best way to put it.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, you're not a jerk. You're -- you're a -- a playful, conspiratorial spirit.

Lintile: There you go. I mean, that's -- that's fair. But I -- I do like to point out other people's mistakes on stage.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, well --

Lintile: And that's something that --

Sherrod DeGrippo: -- it's fun for us in the audience, too.

Lintile: It's necessary, right? I mean, you have to -- have to have some accounting for these things. But in any case, I -- I think that really what it comes down to is making sure that everybody feels included on the joke. And so, sometimes I telegraph to the audience the things to pay attention to. Sometimes I make sure that the contestants know what role that they're fulfilling. Because again, you know, this is an entertainment show first and foremost, and we want us to have sort of a moment together. There have been some really cool moments that we've been able to telegraph into that, like, you know, where Hacker Jeopardy takes a position on some of the societal issues that are going on, some of the, you know, more controversial things that the community is dealing with. I always love being a boilerplate for all of those sort of discussions to happen, because it ends up being a topic of conversation in the hallway afterwards. And that's, I think, part of the goal.

Sherrod DeGrippo: And it does create a lot of, like, really memorable moments where people -- I mean, for me, even like having all of these things, like coming and sitting down and seeing I'm sitting in a place surrounded by, like, all these people I already knew. I was so happy about that. I want to ask you, what is the pre-show ritual? Is there a special meal you eat? Is there a talisman you rub? Is there a sparkly jacket you put on? What do you do to get ready?

Lintile: Yes. Although I don't have any talismans that I'm willing to disclose on this particular podcast --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh, all right.

Lintile: -- I will tell you that I -- I -- one of the things that I do as the host is I memorize all of the questions and answers. And so, I don't --

Sherrod DeGrippo: What? You --

Lintile: -- yes, I don't read from a card.

Sherrod DeGrippo: There's hundreds, aren't there?

Lintile: Well, so for every day, there's two full boards of Jeopardy, which is 30 clues and responses, and then two Final Jeopardy questions and answers. It helps the show flow, and also it makes it so that I don't have to largely rely on a lot of other people on the team for feedback about whether the questions or answers are correct. That has provided its own challenges over time, because just like anybody, I get wrapped up in the show. But the last thing I do generally before going on stage or going, well, going on stage is -- is not the thing that happens right away. I sort of read through all of the boards one last time before I come down, before donning the sparkly jacket or whatever accoutrement has come across the wardrobe for that -- for that year. And then, I generally meet up with four of our goon friends at -- at the venue in which we do a -- a nice little parade walk through, like I'd mentioned before, hyping up the -- the line of people waiting, you know, getting that last sort of jolt of energy. I feed off of the crowd's energy hugely, and that's one of the -- the big -- bit exciting parts for me every time. But we walk into the stage, I generally have one beverage before kicking it off, because, you know, from a quality control perspective, if I'm offering beverages to contestants, it's only responsible for me to ensure that they're up to the quality that we need.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Absolutely. And are you caffeinating at all, or it's just like a drink?

Lintile: It's -- it's just like a drink. Yes. I generally don't partake in the energy drinks anymore. That's days gone by and all of the code that I wrote for most of my 20s, I pretty much exhausted all of the amount of energy drinks that I think any one person should drink. So, it's natural.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Wow, that's incredible. We should figure out how to tap into that, and we could really add some capacity to the grid, I feel like. Let's talk about questions.

Lintile: Sure.

Sherrod DeGrippo: So, what I noticed when I went and it -- I feel like the episode that I saw was, man, I feel like that was a monumental one. It seemed very big deal. Like, the moments happening seemed very like, "Oh, this is a memory." Like, people remember this forever. And I appreciate you, your support team, and the contestants on stage for pulling out the stops and being like, "We're going to make this a memorable experience for this audience." Like, it was clear. They were like, "We're going to make this fun." So, it is super technical. Where did these questions come from? Who's making them? How does that work? What's that process? Are you locking yourselves in a secret room? Who's the keeper of the questions? How does that go?

Lintile: So, there's a member of the team that -- that collaborates with me on questions, the DFIU team. His name is Fizzgig. He is a purveyor of all things nerd trivia, as am I. We have a number of other double checks on the team just to make sure that we have the breadth that we want out of the questions. We try to hit generationally multiple technologies that are not only the oldest of old school, but also, you know, more of the nouveau things. We've incorporated things like threat intelligence and threat actor groups and things of that like.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I love threat intelligence and threat actor groups. Those are things that I really like.

Lintile: I -- well, that's why there's something for everybody at Hacker Jeopardy, Sherrod. The -- the -- the one that we did, I believe this -- this past year, actually -- I do this at other conferences as well. Not just at DEF CON but at THOTCON up in Chicago, we had some APT before and after clues that basically were jamming unrelated topics in with threat actor groups names. And so, it was pretty fun. But we try to hit a wide range so that you know, you will usually always find at least one thing you know, and then have also something that you might be inspired to look into or read more about. I mean, with the advent of all of the AI assistance and the ease of doing deep research on a lot of topics, I think that is a -- a very nice -- nice platform to build on, so that you not only hit what was sort of the requisite knowledge of being a Hacker Jeopardy contestant, but also if you are in the audience, you're going to learn something.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I noticed looking around me, every question people were like [whispering].

Lintile: Yes.

Sherrod DeGrippo: And I would -- I would hear some of the smartest people I know. And I was like, "No, that's wrong. You're wrong. Sorry."

Lintile: These things happen. I have to work on my wrong answer responses. So, if you know Alex Trebek from Jeopardy fame, he had all --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Of course.

Lintile: -- of these really esoteric ways of saying it was the wrong answer. Like "Boo, hiss" or "Oh, I'm sorry." And so, I had to -- I had to sort of make that my own. So, I might use some more colorful metaphors, but we have to let people down gently from time to time, and you know, use a clever turn of phrase to doing that is -- is not a bad thing.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I would say, honestly, that word that you just said is -- is a big descriptor of the entire pageantry, which is colorful. It's -- it's definitely a colorful experience.

Lintile: Yes, I mean, I think that's another part of this that I love to expose, is that, you know, as I'm not casting any aspersions on anybody who would just always dress in all black, as the hacker trope will go, but I will say that there is room for the sparkle and spangle, just the same. And we enjoy being a high level of production on a budget. I think that's another sort of design goal of the overall team. And you know, we've -- we've brought a lot of those aspects of, you know, professional broadcasting, but without the high dollar equipment, without the high dollar things. I mean, most of -- of what we put on is software that's been written by either Fizzgig or myself, hardware that has been put together out of, you know, components that are accessible to anybody for a few dollars, you know, online, and compose that into something that looks and feels like a game show that you might, you know, even see on television.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Are there any topics that you just consider, like, "I don't want any questions about that," too obscure, too hard, too stupid?

Lintile: I don't know that there's anything that we wouldn't ever approach on Hacker Jeopardy.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay.

Lintile: But what I'll tell you is that the method of the way we approach it, we try to keep a fairly neutral tone on everything, because obviously there are controversies out there. There are, situations that, I don't know, probably some people might want us to comment on either positively or negatively. And I think that that has always been a topic that I've tried to stay fairly neutral on, but people can draw their own conclusions. I think there's really only one singular topic that I've -- I've come out very strongly about, and that is any opponent of net neutrality that might have giant candy related mugs. I've --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay.

Lintile: -- taken a couple of people to task on that front before.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay, that is a little puzzle for everyone to go figure out. Are there any fan favorite categories that you've noticed where people just go wild for the topic?

Lintile: Well, the esoterically overall longtime favorite of Hacker Jeopardy has been a category called Port Math. So, each of the different services in computing that are on different ports, like Telnet being on Port 23, etcetera. We encourage the contestants to do simple add, subtract, multiply, divide math with different ports of different services. That one has been a historic longtime favorite. In -- in later years, we've introduced things like -- as a nod to the Dropout TV and -- and Game Changer folks, the Um Actually categories where it's not just correcting the text on screen, but it's doing so in sort of a condescending way, but then also remembering to phrase it in the form of a question kind of makes it a little bit more difficult. It's one of those situations like I'd mentioned before, where people get so excited that they know the right answer that they completely forget the format. But those are probably my two favorites overall.

Sherrod DeGrippo: If you knew someone had never been to Hacker Jeopardy before and they were like, "I'm going Hacker Jeopardy tonight," what attitude would you want them to bring? What guidance would you give them? Any props they should come with? What would you tell a total noob?

Lintile: Totally. So, show up early. Like you'd mentioned, the line is -- is not a lie. There will always be a line for Hacker Jeopardy. So, show up early. Bring friends and come ready to just expel some energy into the room. And I can almost guarantee you it will be paid back a hundred-fold. The -- in terms of like understanding the format, if you've never like interacted with the game of Jeopardy, there are plenty of references on the Internet or anywhere else where you can watch an episode and figure out the format. But the bottom line is you have to answer in the form of a question. That's the only rule. But as close as you can get to the stage, I would say --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: -- you see more of the nuance, more of the human reactions, more of the just sort of the behind the scenes things that people may not pick up on because there is some very loosely controlled chaos that goes on anytime that we are on stage, and the show must go on and -- and we barrel forward. In fact, as an example of this, which you got a front row seat to last year, was about five minutes into the show, a brand-new MacBook that was running the show --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: -- just completely turned off and wouldn't turn back on. And so, in about I think 7 minutes and 30 seconds as we did the postmortem on the incident response, about seven and a half minutes, we transferred all of the questions and all of the data onto a different laptop and ran the show from there. And so, there's always something unexpected that happens. And I can tell you just like anything DEF CON, you're going to want to be able to say you were there when it did.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I completely agree. I think it is just really one of the most fun things. Especially the fact that it's like a nighttime, after hours thing when everyone has spent the whole day like walking the floor and talking to people and playing capture the flag and trying out new things at villages and sitting and watching talking talks. You get to this thing at the end of the day where everyone is just screaming. And it really is a pageantry of emotion, because you watch these people on stage and they get it wrong because -- say they didn't say it in the form of a question and the whole audience is like, "Oh." And like everyone's in pain and like doubled over and it's like, "Yes, that hurt. It hurt them. It hurt us."

Lintile: It's like -- I've described it this way before. It's like one of the most non-religious religious experiences that I think -- I think people have had because there's that sort of community and emotion. And you're absolutely right, is that that shared -- that shared empathy is something that, you know -- I think my favorite moments, you know, when it comes down to thinking of that particular topic are when the only people that don't know the correct response are the nine contestants on stage. And the bristling energy that comes out of the audience in those moments is so satisfying to me because number one, got them, but number two --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: -- like everybody in the audience gets to feel superior the way that I would contend a lot of us that did watch game shows or even do watch game shows feel when we're watching and you know, you've got the solve the puzzle on Wheel of Fortune or you know what the number one answer is on Family Feud. There's just a -- there's an emotion that's derived from those moments that I really love replicating. And that's always a target for both the categories we pick, the questions we pick, as well as the contestants that we pick because you know, again, this is -- this is trying to find people that are well-rounded and know a broad set of information, but also can quite frankly get the audience on their side, because as you had seen even this past year, you are either a pariah or the champion of the audience. And that's to be determined by your actions.

Sherrod DeGrippo: It truly does bring me back to the sort of like Roman Colosseum times of like thumbs up, thumbs up. I mean it's -- it's quite the gauntlet. Well, Lintile, it's only fair. It is time for me to ask you to play the game.

Lintile: Oh no. All right, let's do it.

Sherrod DeGrippo: All right. Please remember to answer in the form of a question.

Lintile: I'll do my best.

Sherrod DeGrippo: This legendary text file, hosted on the old frack zine, detailed how to make free long distance calls.

Lintile: Wow. We do cover this particular topic in -- in some depth as part of Hacker Jeopardy. Oh, man, I'm going to embarrass myself here. I believe this is referring to, "What is 2600?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: This is, "What is the Blue Box Guide?"

Lintile: Oh, "What is the Blue Box?" Of course. Shoot. There you go. There's your first clip.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay, here we go. I got another.

Lintile: Okay.

Sherrod DeGrippo: This hacker group made headlines in the late 90s and early 2000s by exposing corporate secrets and claimed to be digital Robinhoods.

Lintile: I'm going to go with, "What is Loft Heavy Industries?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: We have Cult of the Dead Cow, but that is very, very close.

Lintile: Oh, okay. Yes. Much respect to both of those groups.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: Oh, man, this is going to be embarrassing. If this is, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me," I've already lost.

Sherrod DeGrippo: No, you're doing great. You're doing great. Here's an easy one.

Lintile: Okay. Thank goodness.

Sherrod DeGrippo: The first DEF CON ever took place in this city.

Lintile: The first DEF CON ever. "What is Las Vegas, Nevada?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: That -- that is correct. That is correct.

Lintile: Oh, thank goodness.

Sherrod DeGrippo: You got one. You got one.

Lintile: At the Alexis, even --

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes.

Lintile: -- a frequent topic of Hacker Jeopardy categories.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, that is correct. All right, now we've got some technical ones.

Lintile: All right.

Sherrod DeGrippo: This tool, originally developed by Theodore, is used to map out network hosts and services.

Lintile: Well, I'm not just asking about flags here, so I'm going to go with, "What is Nmap?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: Correct. That is correct. Very good. Okay, now we have some pop culture questions.

Lintile: Okay, good.

Sherrod DeGrippo: And I have a feeling you're going to get all these, right?

Lintile: One can only hope.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Okay, here we go. In this 1995 movie, the character Zero Cool hacks into TV networks and gets arrested as a kid.

Lintile: Well, I guess the pool on the roof has sprung a leak. So, I'm going to go with, "What is Hackers?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: Correct. That is correct. I know the audience out there is, like, listening in their car, like, screaming like, "It's Hackers." Okay. This 1983 film starred Matthew Broderick and introduced the concept of global thermonuclear war via modem.

Lintile: Well, I -- that's a whopper of a question. And I'm going to have to say, "What is War Games?" Possibly my favorite hacker movie.

Sherrod DeGrippo: That is correct. That is correct. And this next question is about my second favorite hacker movie. In Sneakers, 1992, this actor -- so you got to know the actor from Sneakers, leads the team of security experts who discover the device that can break encryption. Who is the actor?

Lintile: Playing Martin Bishop, one of my favorite characters, and I have to agree with you, if there were to be a -- a foil to War Games as my favorite movie, I would have to say, "What -- who is Robert Redford?"

Sherrod DeGrippo: That is correct. Very good. You won. You won.

Lintile: I love it.

Sherrod DeGrippo: That was great. That was great.

Lintile: You can just go ahead and cut out all of the ones that I did not get correct.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes. We will not air those. We're going to air those. Tell the podcast engineers we are definitely airing those.

Lintile: Oh, geez.

Sherrod DeGrippo: People want to see this, believe me. Lintile, it was so great having you. Thank you so, so much. And where can everyone see you next?

Lintile: Well, next is going to be on stage at DEF CON. So, I will see all of you there at DEF CON 33.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Come on by. Let's get Hacker Jeopardy. I'll see you in the audience.

Lintile: And I only have one question for you, Sherrod.

Sherrod DeGrippo: Oh.

Lintile: When are you going to play Hacker Jeopardy?

Sherrod DeGrippo: Yes, that's a great question. No, I don't know about that. I -- I don't think I can keep up with the beverage consumption, honestly.

Lintile: Well, it turns out you don't have to.

Sherrod DeGrippo: I'm -- I'm pretty smart. You don't have to?

Lintile: Well, if -- for all of those you are listening, please put in the comments how much you want Sherrod to play Hacker Jeopardy.

Sherrod DeGrippo: All right, we'll see what happens. We'll see. Thanks for joining me and we'll see you at DEF CON.

Lintile: Until next time, DFIU.

Sherrod DeGrippo: DFIU. Thanks for listening to the "Microsoft Threat Intelligence Podcast." We'd love to hear from you. Email us with your ideas @tipodcast@microsoft.com. Every episode, we'll decode the threat landscape and arm you with the intelligence you need to take on threat actors. Check us out, msthreatintelpodcast.com for more and subscribe on your favorite podcast app. [ Music ]