10,000 Days in Cybersecurity

Haider Pasha: You know, they look at cybersecurity more as a - as a bump in the road, rather than something that needs to be embedded from the beginning of the CICD pipeline, and we still have problems, even 10,000 days later, [laughter]. You know, we - we still have coders that just don't get it. And so this is where the awareness factor comes in, and a true partnership, I think, between the CIO and the CISOs of the world, I think, is really needed. You know, it's happening in many cases, but I think it still needs to get better. [ Music ]

David Moulton: Welcome to Threat Vector, the Palo Alto Networks podcast where we discuss pressing cybersecurity threats and resilience, and uncover insights into the latest industry trends. I'm your host, David Moulton, director of thought leadership for Unit 42. [ Laughter ] Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Haider Pasha, the chief security officer for EMEA and LATAM at Palo Alto Networks. Haider is a cybersecurity leader with nearly three decades of experience in the field. Over the course of his career, he's held senior roles with Cisco, Symantec, and now for the last six years, at Palo Alto Networks. Haider has been a trusted advisor and thought leader, helping CISOs and CIOs across EMEA and LATAM, strategize for end-to-end security resilience, understand evolving threats, and address regulatory challenges like GDPR and NIS2. Today we'll dive into Haider's perspective on how cybersecurity has transformed in these first 10,000 days of his career. His upcoming project reflects on how threats, jobs, and capabilities have evolved, and why some traditional mindsets, especially around strategies like layered defense versus zero trust, might be holding back cybersecurity progress. We'll also discuss concept of platformization, which Haider sees as a critical shift for the industry. Let's explore what the future holds for cyber-resilience, and learn from Haider's incredible journey. [ Music ] Haider Pasha, welcome to Threat Vector. Really excited to have you here today.

Haider Pasha: It's a pleasure to be here.

David Moulton: Talk to me a little bit about your role here at Palo Alto Networks, and how you've seen the cybersecurity landscape evolve in maybe just the past year.

Haider Pasha: Well, first, thanks again for having me. I - it's a - it's a pleasure to be on. So my role in the company is a field CISO, so I'm a chief security officer that covers EMEA and Latina America. And in my role, I work very closely with some of our most strategic customers across the region, and at the same time do a bit of thought leadership for some of the key events and, you know, represent the company. But obviously not just myself, but the team that I run, we represent the company at some of the major events as well. And your second question was on the threat landscape.

David Moulton: Yeah, how have you seen it, just in the last year, change?

Haider Pasha: I think a - a lot of the change really comes from understanding the speed, scale, and sophistication of the cyberattack and the cyber attackers, right? So we've seen everything from the time it's taking for them to speed up an attack using tactics like generative AI to improve phishing email content, as an example, and really perfect it, thereby getting access to their victims' environments a lot faster. I think that's, on the one side is the speed aspect. The scale aspect is really important as well, so we are seeing the time it takes for them to get into an environment, grab the data, and get out is actually shrinking, and what used to take in some cases weeks has now been reduced, in some cases, down to even a couple of hours. And then in terms of sophistication, when you start to see the, the continuous use of deep fake activity and other forms of innovative innovation in using AI, I think we will continue to - to see more and more use cases of that in 2025 and beyond as well.

David Moulton: Alright. So Haider, your background in cybersecurity is - is incredibly rich, and I know that you've been working on a project tentatively titled My First 10,000 Days in Cybersecurity. Could you share what inspired this reflection, and - and what are some of the most important changes you've seen since you first entered this field?

Haider Pasha: Look, I know 10,000 days sounds like a lot. If you do the math, it equates to about, I don't know, 27 and a half years or something. And a couple of months ago, I sat back and started reflecting on, you know, how long have I actually been in the industry, and it equated to about 10,000 days. So I - I found that as a bit of a milestone. And I'm sure many people probably listening in have been in the industry as long as I have, probably even longer. But I think what's really, for me was an inspiration, was to actually think about how cybersecurity, as you rightly said, has actually changed and - and evolved. To give you a quick story as to where my career started, back in, I think it was mid-quarter of '98, I was a computer science student. I went to Purdue. And in my junior year or start of my senior year, I was taking a CS 300-level course on operating systems, and our professor gives us this assignment. It was an assignment on inter-process communications. So the goal was, can you write a program that can self-replicate across different processes, similar to how most efficient OS's manage tasks today. And so I was so, you know, engrossed in this challenge, I thought, okay, let's - I can do that, but then what if I could actually program this to - to self-replicate not just within one environment, but across multiple machines? And so now I'm thinking, you know, I'm super clever, and I've gone out and actually created this program that actually can go from one machine to the next. And, you know - you know, you could probably guess what happened, right? So, it wasn't meant to be malicious. It didn't steal any data. It didn't delete any files or anything harmful, but what ended up happening is it replicated itself as part of this learning experiment. I even, by the way, added this harmless kind of message that said, hello earthlings, just to know that it's executed on the machine. And lo and behold, it now starts propagating across almost every single computer at the university campus, and people started getting these hello earthlings pop up on their - on their machine, and a lot of the machines actually crashed under the unexpected load. And so I'm freaking out. I've got the IT department obviously, you know, trying to figure out what's going on, and within hours they had to shut down the network, and - I mean, it was a complete nightmare. But the reason why I share all this is, what I give them credit to is when I actually did confess and tell them what happened, and - you know, they didn't really give me a penalty. They actually said, you know what? Let's build a kill-switch, and let's figure out how you came to this conclusion, and - and actually helped me learn from that experience. And that entire process actually taught me a lot about, you know, downtime and the relevance of how security like kill-switches, and you need to obviously, you know, test your code in isolated, controlled environments, and so on. And just because you can build something doesn't mean you should, right? So that was where my journey began, and where I am today, after spending, I don't know, I think it was about 14, 15 years at Cisco, and then 5, 6 years at Symantec, and now 6 years or so at Palo Alto, you know, what I've really learned is, a lot actually hasn't really changed. You know, we still have malware problems. We still have man-in-the-middle attacks. We still have denial-of-service attacks. But my reflection and the reason why I'm going to be putting out a bunch of different articles on this is, what has changed is sort of this evolution from worrying about the perimeter and - and layered defense, to now zero trust. And what has changed is our shift from thinking about on-prem security to now cloud-based security. And what has changed is AI and ML, and also the actual need to consolidate, and to reduce, and to move towards a platform-based approach. I guess I would summarize it all by saying what's really changed is business resilience, right? I think that, ultimately for me, is a - is a key reason why, you know, I'm - I'm putting together this project and sharing - sharing my views.

David Moulton: It's really interesting to think about that moment, as a college student, wreaking havoc inside of - inside of the Purdue network, go Boilermakers, and instead of it being a - a negative memory for you, it turns into one that sounds foundational. We were talking to Mira not to long ago, and she thought about her partnership with security is, she wants to go fast, and she needs to trust that security's going to provide really strong brakes. And I thought that was an interesting analogy, and I - I hear it again from you, right? Like, something's going very fast, and I need to be able to put a brake on it very quickly. Who does that? And that isn't the normal - that's right, they want to go fast, scale, be efficient, but sometimes what you really want is a good set of brakes.

Haider Pasha: 100%. I mean, again, I was a coder back then. I mean, to a certain extent I still code, but not as well as I did back then, but this is the number one problem in the dev-op space today, right? We - we still talk about, you know, training developers to understand the relevance of cybersecurity, and you know, they look at cybersecurity more as a - as a bump in the road, rather than something that needs to be embedded from the beginning of the CICD pipeline. And we still have problems, even 10,000 days later, [laughter], you know, we still have coders that just don't get it. And so I think this is where the awareness factor comes in, and a true partnership, I think, between the CIO and the CISOs of the world, I think, is really needed. You know, it's happening in many cases, but I think it still needs to get better.

David Moulton: Of course. One of the things that I've observed in not quite 10,000 days, I'm a - I'm a couple of laps behind you, is that our technology reflects our humanity, and the way that we build and architect things reflects how we live and think about the world. And some of the more effective security concepts actually thwart that or think about it in the opposite way. Do you see that as a - as a valid way of looking at what security needs to be able to do, is to look at our biases and our - our norms as humans, social beings, and to understand that those are actually some of our biggest weaknesses from a security standpoint, and then build against those - those biases or those norms? Or have I just gone in a totally crazy direction with that thinking?

Haider Pasha: No, yeah. Maybe. Look, I mean, I'm a technologist by nature, and I think hopefully many of the people that are listening in are - are technologists at heart, as well. I would be the first one to go out and buy the latest and greatest new, innovative technology that exists out there, right? But at the same day, you know, at the same time, I'm still a CISO, I'm still somebody that thinks about security first. Not everybody thinks like that. And the traditional CIOs of the world, or CTOs of the world, obviously think about going fast, as you said earlier, and innovating as quickly as possible so they can achieve better business outcomes. As, you know, as wonderful as new technology sounds, I always question, you know, the - the impact and the outcome that new technology or new innovations are going to solve for the business. And that, I think, has changed a lot. I mean, if I go back again, 20 years ago, 20 years ago there weren't a lot of CISOs in the industry. But even 10 years ago, you know, many CISOs were very focused on just thinking about securing the network or the - the endpoint, and the cloud to a certain extent. Nobody really cared or really wanted to venture into business understanding and business outcomes, but today that's changed a lot.

David Moulton: That increase in scope seems like it's made the job more difficult. You have to be a domain expert in security and then also have a - a strong command of your business goals, your business needs, and what is the absolute set of priorities within that business context. How do you get to a point where you have domain command, and a deep understanding of the business, and the ability to put it together? Who's good at that?

Haider Pasha: I - I think traditionally, many of the CISOs that I know and - and that I've seen, both from the customer environment as well as my own, you know, peers in the market, come from two forms, really. It's - it's either you come from a technology background, which is you were a security analyst or a security engineer. Now, the challenge is, when you come from a technology background, your kneejerk reaction is to get the latest and greatest tech, because that's what you grew up learning. And that's not necessarily the right shift that is required for your organization. The second one, on the - on the policy perspective, is now you have people who come from a policy and risk world, who generally don't understand technology that well either. So you kind of struggle on - on both fronts. I think where I found the perfect balance, where I've seen CISOs find the perfect balance, is those that have the intuition and the - the - the drive to continuously adapt and to continuously learn. Today the CISO of 2025 is one that has multiple levels of experience. You know, they have sort of the strategic shift, where they're thinking from a - a technical operator to a business executive, where they're having conversations at the board level, where they're able to talk about risk quantification in business terms. They're also focused on not just the strategic, but also the scope expansion. Right, where they're thinking about, okay, I'm not just focused on security for my organization, I also have to think about third party risk management. I have to think about privacy and compliance integration, you know, with the regulators in - in tow. Then the third area is the investment, right? So I'm not just focused on buying the latest and greatest, I have to think about ROI measurement. I have to think about technology portfolio optimization or risk-based budgeting as an example. And then lastly, I think it - where I've seen some really successful CISOs really step up a notch is leadership, leadership requirements in general. So many of the successful CISOs I know are cross-functional animals, right? They - they can speak to the business side of the house, they can speak to the dev ops side of the house, they can speak to various kind of different functions, and actually champion the need for cybersecurity. Yet they're also crisis management animals, right? They - they - they know where, and how, and have done enough drills to actually run through all of that. And so, you know, that's where I've seen this evolution of the, sort of the CISO over the course of the last couple of years, and I think moving forward, AI, and automation, and, you know, all of the wonderful influences that we see from - from - from that technology I think are really going to shape how the CISOs of the future are going to be operating as well. I think that's where the - the - the - a true cybersecurity professional or leader of the future is one that balances both the technology side as well as the business objective side. And of course you need soft skills, so of course it goes without saying, you - you can't just sit behind a - a machine all day, even if you're a SOC analyst for that matter. So you need to have the right communication. You need to think critically or have critical thinking methodologies, and whether you're in the SOC, whether you're a Sec Ops person, whether you're a CISO, or you know, security director, everyone needs that in their - in their enablement. [ Music ]

David Moulton: Haider, in your experience, how's the role of the CISO changed over the years?

Haider Pasha: Quite a lot. I mean, again, when I began in the industry, there was no such thing as a CISO, right? We were security managers or security directors, and we were focused very much on the network and the endpoint, right? There was no cloud back then either. But in the course of the last couple of decades, the CISO has become sort of a cornerstone of any digital transformation initiative that an organization wants to take. I mean, and - and the - the main transformation, I think, happened post-COVID, right? And so obviously when COVID happened, everyone went into lockdown, and the first thing the - the business turned to, or the first person, or the individuals they turned to were the CIOs and the CISOs, right, to make sure that we can stay connected, but that we're also secure at the same time. And, you know, roughly, I think a year or two as we started to get out of lockdown, the business turned to the same people and said, what's next? And I think the CISOs answered the call along with the CIOs, right? The CIOs came back with tons of different IT initiatives that would continue to improve the business, and the CISO had to go back and actually secure each and every single one of those transformations. And as I said earlier, I think the focus of the CISO today is making sure they have a - a strong strategic shift, but also understanding the expansion that they're doing in terms of the role itself. You know, the investment, the - the focus, I think is really important, to make sure they deploy the right technology at the right time that solves a specific business outcome. And then that leadership quality I talked about earlier, which is, you know, how can I stay as a cultural transformation, you know, individual that helps the whole organization adopt cybersecurity, not as a - at the tail end of a project, but actually embedded right from the get-go.

David Moulton: That is a big, big job, and it doesn't seem like it's one that's going to get smaller. I'm going to ask you to do something that's a bit impossible, and we won't be able to grade your answer for a bit, if you move into the future. What is the job of the CISO in the next 10,000 days? You know, do you have a - a sense of what that would be?

Haider Pasha: Yeah. I mean, there's - there's - I've put a lot of thought into it, and the - and the - and the short answer is, I would love to be a Nostradamus right now and tell you exactly what the CISO of the future is going to be doing, but nobody truly really knows except for really understanding that you - what - I can't tell you what they'll be doing. I can tell you what they need to be doing, which is they need to think about having a flexible mindset towards technology, towards the architectures that they're putting together. You know, they need to think about, obviously we talked about continuous learning, but also understand that their roles will evolve, right? Maybe 10,000 days from now we might be asking the question of whether we need a CISO. Right? If automation truly is helping us evolve, the future of the SOC should be 100% fully automated SOC. Maybe in the next 10,000 days we may actually have a fully-functioning cybersecurity unit, including a CISO, right? So, maybe it won't be a CISO that we'll be talking to. Maybe it would be a chief AI security officer, right? And also then thinking about a risk-based approach, to actually go back and say, you know, how does this align to the business? How does - can I receive regular threat assessments against this new technology or new process that I'm thinking about doing, and do I have dynamic controls to either scale up or scale down as I deploy this technology, right, and where are those controls exist - existing. And then finally, can I measure the outcome, right? I think that's the future CISO, or CAIO, whatever you want to call it, [laughter].

David Moulton: Sure. So, I'm going to put a mark here for our listeners, that if we're able to keep Threat Vector going here in the next 10,000 days, to check the answer, but I hope that you'll be stay tuned and, you know, listening to the show. One of the other things that you just brought up was whether or not we'll need a CISO or not, and I want to get your opinion on something a little bit maybe closer or more near-term. Mike Spisak had talked about AI, and AI agents, and how there may be this invention or this innovation around a personal AI agent that follows you around. It moves from device to device, or network to network, with you, keeping an eye on your activity and the types of things that are going on that could compromise you. And I'm curious what you think about that idea of AI-driven personal security that a user could have.

Haider Pasha: I think it's happening now. One of our customers actually had me on a call. One of the - the CTOs that I know really well, he was responsible for putting together the FIFA World Cup a couple of years ago. And, you know, he got in touch with a couple of students in Singapore who have essentially developed this - this process where they've essentially managed to build an AI agent based on the personality of this particular individual. And so the AI agent actually does the majority of the job, they said. Obviously this AI agent has access to their - their calendar, their - their previous, you know, LinkedIn posts, as an example, or any content that they've created, so it's learned the personality of this individual, and of course they had spent quite a number of months trying to interact with that particular agent. But ultimately what that agent does today is it actually has a conversation first. If I need to get in touch with this person, I can actually send an email to the AI agent that he has, and that AI agent would respond on behalf of this individual. And I think this is frankly the future. I think in - in the future, if you feed enough information to an AI that - that truly understands and has access to your details, and it understands your personality and everything else, you may actually end up in a world where you have the two, you know, your AI agent talk to my AI agent, before the two of us actually have a conversation, and the majority of the work has been done in the background, and you and I are really just kind of solidifying the conversation and closing out the summary. For me, ultimately in any AI-based innovation, data plays the most critical role, right? And as you're seeing already in all of the discussions you've had about AI, not just with me, or in one of the previous podcasts you did, but also with others, is that AI is only as impactful and effective as the - the data that it's gathered, right? So in the world of cybersecurity, to bring it back to what we're doing, you know, I think it's - it's really, what you need is the - is data that is essentially rich, it's accurate, and the AI model is trained against that particular set of data. It has to be the best, the richest, the most accurate cybersecurity data.

David Moulton: How do you see AI and machine learning transforming the cybersecurity landscape?

Haider Pasha: There's a - there's a, I think you could probably have a whole podcast just on AI and machine learning at this point, right?

David Moulton: Yeah.

Haider Pasha: So, but there's a number of different things we - we can talk about. I think for me, and you've - you've obviously had this question, I think, or some form of this question on some of the previous podcasts, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this, but yes, we see a massive shift towards AI and ML in many, multiple - or many and multiple use cases in the cybersecurity landscape. The SOC, of course, is one obvious example, right? We start to see vast amounts of data in real-time that is analyzed. We can identify anomalies, we can identify patterns, and we can indicate when the attack is happening. By the way, we've been doing this for 10 years, right? So it's nothing new. We did this in our wildfire services, you know, more than a decade ago. But what I think is really changing now is this ability to actually improve predictive capabilities, where you can actually help organizations anticipate and prevent threats before they occur. And that's why we built XIM, and that's the true power of something like an XIM platform for the SOC. But having said that, attackers obviously are leveraging AI as well. And so ultimately I think, you know, even thought I've yet to hear, as I said, of a true AI-drive cyberattack that has brought down a customer or has - there - there's been a major breach with, but this may actually happen, and I truly believe that the - the first pure AI-driven cyberattack won't be from a - like a, you know, attack group. I think it's going to be a nation-state that will actually use AI against their adversary. But ultimately, as I said earlier, it's really about the data. Right, let's make sure you have really the - the best, you have the - the richest, you've got the most accurate cybersecurity data to train with. I think that's actually what's going to be really critical.

David Moulton: Haider, I'm going to go back about 10 years. That's when I ended up joining security at a - at a previous organization. And, you know, at the time I was introduced to the roles, and to threat actors, and to things that were going on. Threat actors have increasingly become more sophisticated. They - they seem to be able to move quicker. I was looking at some of our recent Unit 42 threat data and the time to exfil has just massively dropped again. And I'm wondering, if you could go and look at our current threat landscape, compared to a decade ago or even further back, and compare the types of threats that we were seeing, and use that to - to predict or talk about what you think are going to become the most prevalent threats, maybe in the next couple of years, next five years. What should we be looking out for?

Haider Pasha: So with threats being a lot more coordinated, stealthy, persistent, and now we're starting to talk about AI-powered attacks, where, again, I don't think we're there yet. I don't - I haven't seen any successful AI-based automated attack that's really kind of brought something down, but it will eventually get there, I mean, in this evolution of how cyberattacks are actually coordinated with kinetic attacks, right? Again, never seen before, at least in - that I've - that I've known of. So when we look forward, I think for me, the future is, of course, a lot more AI-powered, where we will start to see more and more generative models that will create highly-personalized, convincing phishing attacks, as an example, right? Personalized supply chain attacks, right, that will continue to grow. We're going to start to see attackers infiltrate multiple organizations at once, and they're going to target trusted vendors and partners, and you're going to start to hear about more major breaches that will often stem from compromised third-party software and services. We already saw two multi-billion-dollar breaches that occurred back in 2024. I think this is just the starting point. Solar Winds, by the way, was a - was a key incident that, I think highlighted this shift, right? So - and most of the discussions I have with CIOs and CISOs today is, I - I question how well they understand their supply chain partners' cyber-resilience posture. And I always tell them, I - you are as strong as your weakest supplier. Right? So I think that's where the focus is and will be in the future. I think we've moved from this opportunistic ransomware to this sophisticated double, triple, quadruple levels of extortion tactics, and I think the future is going to be more focused around critical infrastructure and large enterprises.

David Moulton: So Haider, you've spoken about platformization as the essential evolution for cybersecurity. What are the benefits you see in consolidating security through a unified platform approach?

Haider Pasha: You know, I think I - I have to credit Nikesh, our chairman and CEO for this, but it's been about a year now since he brought this term up, and at first it raised a lot of questions. I had a lot of customers actually ask me, does this even - word exist in the - in the dictionary? But today, I think everyone's talking about it, right? And - and obviously it's - it's a testament to the leadership, but also the fact that it is a - a concept that I think should have happened in industry years ago, right? And as I said earlier, I've worked at Cisco for many years. I've worked at Symantec for many years. These are pretty good companies who have some great technology as well, right? And everyone, and pretty much the entire time I was in both companies, they also talked about having a platform or some sort of a platformization approach, in their own words. But that never really worked. And the reason why it never really worked was because they didn't really focus on integration in itself. So the focus there was, let's buy as many companies as we can, and then try and stitch everything together. Well, that doesn't work, because you've essentially - what you've done is what most CISOs and most organizations have been doing, which is stitching together, you know, all these different best-of-breed in certain cases products, and then trying to call it a platform. When I came to Palo Alto, one of the reasons why I moved here was - was purely because they believed in this concept of making sure that, first and foremost, everything you do from a - from a platform perspective is that it is purely integrated, in terms of policy, in terms of control plane, in terms of visibility, and so on. So when Nikesh introduced the term platformization, I think a lot of people also confused it with consolidation. And again, that's an area that I think we need to continue to reeducate customers on, is that consolidation is one of many outcomes of platformization. And so, for me, where I - from where I sit, ultimately it's about streamlining cybersecurity operations, where you can consolidate functions into a single integrated platform that's fully-integrated, which can also show you total cost of ownership, which can also show you and actually give you a very innovative solution, and it continues to stay ahead of the competition as well as the attackers, and it has AI embedded so that it actually gives you an outcome, which is real-time and autonomous. Right? That, for me, is what platformization is all about. And the benefits are pretty clear. You get unified security, you get operational efficiency, because you no longer have to deal with the complexities of 20, 30, 50 cybersecurity vendors. You get analytics advantages, which is you've got the correlation insights, you've got the ML that's embedded, you've got unified reporting, and the predictive capabilities we talked about, and then finally you've go the business impact, that you can truly show to your board, where you can talk about faster response times. You can talk about reduced vendor overhead and better cyber outcomes through simplified compliance, right? That's where I think the true power of - of platformization is, and yes, it took us a year to - or at least for many of my customers, a year to really get - wrap their head around what it means, versus just simple consolidation, but I think we're there now, and mature discussions I have with many CISOs, you know, is truly around the benefits of platformization.

David Moulton: Haider, with the rapid pace of digital transformation, how can organizations future-proof their cybersecurity strategies to remain adaptive in the constantly-changing landscape?

Haider Pasha: So for me, I think it's really important, first and foremost, that whatever technology that you're looking to future-proof against, you need to have that - that cybersecurity mindset of embedding cybersecurity in the first stage, and not as a - at a later stage, right? So any digital transformation will not be possible without cybersecurity in the - as - as sort of the first step of your transformation strategy. And so you need to embrace that. You need to have a cultural mindset shift towards it. I think many organizations frankly don't, and so that's something that really needs to change right now. And you also need to think about flexibility and innovation to that program. I talked a little bit about the flexible architecture for the CISO to think through, right? I think many organizations are now cloud-first, and ultimately, as you start to think about platforms or modular platforms, I think this is an area that they're going to start to need to embed not just in the cloud, but obviously for everything that they're doing on-prem, at the endpoint, and so on. And for me, really, I think the - this foster of cultural security awareness across the organization will ensure that everyone plays a key role in maintaining a strong defense, when we think about transformation. And I think that's really what's going to be a key gamechanger.

David Moulton: Haider, thanks so much for today's conversation. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on 10,000 days in cybersecurity, and some of your thoughts on what you think are going to happen in the next 10,000 days.

Haider Pasha: Always a pleasure. Thank you so much, David, for having me. [ Music ]

David Moulton: That's it for today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Those reviews and your feedback really do help us understand what you want to hear about. If you want to reach out to me directly about the show, email me at threatvector at paloaltonetworks.com. I want to thank our executive producer, Michael Heller, our content and production teams, which include Kenne Miller, Joe Bettencourt, and Virginia Tran. Elliott Peltzman edits the show and mixes the audio. We'll be back next week. Until then, stay secure, stay vigilant. Goodbye for now. [ Music ]