Europe's push for space sovereignty.
Ethan Cook: No one ever wants to say as a country that we're dependent on another country for X or Y. And especially when it's a mission critical thing. The U.S. learned this in the -- you know, in the 70s with -- with OPEC, right? Maybe relying on oil from another country when our country requires it is not the best thing in the world. And the U.S. has changed its approach and over the past, you know, couple decades has dramatically reduced that international reliance.
Maria Varmazis: We're going to leave Strait of Hormuz out of that entirely. Just -- just for people.
Ethan Cook: You know, theoretically. It's all -- it's all conceptual.
Maria Varmazis: I'm going to be capable person this whole show on paper. [ Music ] Welcome. I'm Maria Varmazis and you're listening to "T-Minus Space Cyber Briefing." In this show, we examine the evolution of cybersecurity in the global and orbital infrastructure that powers, protects and connects our lives. [ Music ] Hi, everybody, and thank you for joining me. In today's show, I'm talking to "T-Minus" producer, Ethan Cook about space sovereignty. It's a phrase being bandied about quite a bit lately, but what exactly does it mean? Well, who better to dive into the broad ranging details of it all than Ethan, who not only lives and breathes geopolitics, but in addition to being one of our producers here at "T-Minus," he's also a producer on one of our sister shows here at N2K called "Caveat," which is all about cybersecurity law and policy. So, this space sovereignty chat gets into lots of geopolitics, the context of current events, as well as parallels to data sovereignty, cross border issues of data ownership. Oh, and for some good measure, what's cooking in the EU Space Act's pillars of safety, resiliency and sustainability. Oh, yes, and this is just the first half of our chat. We'll share the second half with you in next week's episode. There's just that much to discuss. Well, in the meantime, you ready? Let's go. All right, it is time now for my favorite kind of conversation. And that's when I get to chat with producer Ethan Cook. Hello, Ethan.
Ethan Cook: Hey, how you doing?
Maria Varmazis: I'm -- I'm excellent now that we get to talk today.
Ethan Cook: Wonderful.
Maria Varmazis: Yes. And, Ethan, we're going to be chatting today about something that is so in your wheelhouse. I cannot wait to get your thoughts.
Ethan Cook: Yes, it's -- it's near and dear to my heart.
Maria Varmazis: Oh, I know. It's all geopolitics and this is like -- this is your world. So, I'm just going to -- I'm going to posit the -- the topic, but then I want you to tell me a bit about your area of expertise just so we can establish this because I think our audience should know. So, we're going to be talking about space sovereignty specifically in the context of Europe. That's like our focus area for today, but because this is such a geopolitical conversation, and Ethan, you are my geopolitics guy. Tell me a bit about your area of expertise here just so -- just so, you can brag a bit.
Ethan Cook: Yes, so I -- while I'm not traditionally a, you know, a space geopolitics person, I think, you know, the conversations around geopolitics and politics in general have always been something that I've been fascinated by. And as I've gotten into the space, learning the geopolitics behind this as a sub node is like fascinating.
Maria Varmazis: Good.
Ethan Cook: But the -- you know, I -- I went to school. My -- my undergraduate degree was in political science. And I have always been focused on international relations too within that as well. Also, in history. And I think, you know, to understand history you got -- to understand modern politics, you have to understand history. And the -- that is culminessed [phonetic] into this passion about not just, you know, what's going on in the world because I don't really think that matters too much, but the bigger question is why it's going on in the world and what's driving the forces, what -- who's the actors behind it, and not just like what they're doing, but you know, what is the long term five year plan with this or --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- what in the past five years has caused this policy to emerge? And I think when you look at spacing, especially when you look at the sovereignty conversation that's going on, you can see very, very clear lines here, outside of the space sector, but tangentially related, that have driven this and have driven this --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- mentality of kind of an, oh [bleep], we're not really as monolithic as a country in this conversation as we really want to be.
Maria Varmazis: Yes, well said. Yes. And, so yes, Ethan, let's -- let's get into that because I'm coming at this as the like space current events nerd and also just overall space nerd. So, I have a feeling my job here will be to -- to provide like the wet blanket perspective of like, "Oh, it's not going as well as we think," or "It's going really great." I don't know. Either one. But let's -- let's talk about, I guess the broader context before we dive into the -- the space angle. I feel like, especially given our world in the -- the world of the CyberWire, we got to start with data sovereignty and -- and that conversation with Europe. So, I mean, how do you even want to approach that? I mean, that is a massive, massive show on its own.
Ethan Cook: Yes, that's -- I mean, to get into the weeds of that would be -- it would take episodes. But I think when, you know, you think of sovereignty as even taking the data part out of it, you know, you're thinking of a country's ability to make decisions and enforce those decisions without another country kind of interfering with those things, right? So, if the EU says, "Hey, we want to implement this new data security law," maybe the GDPR, for example, they have the right to do that, and no other country can really stop them or prevent them from enforcing it within their territories. So, when we bring that kind of logic to data, it gets a little messy because outside of just people being able to access the -- services and websites in other countries which, you know, they're collecting data, and that's now, you know, involving a foreign citizen of another country, you also get into conversations regarding data storage. Right? Let's go into, okay, I'm a California resident, right? I live, you know, let's say I live in San Fran, California. Really strict data security laws for the U.S. And I access a website that's based in, I don't know, Britain. Right? Britain, I go to them and they have a whole different host of laws. But that data is now hosted and stored in, let's say, Canada, for whatever the website is, right? Now, you have now involved three different countries with three vastly different, maybe with some similarities, but data protection laws that all require different things. And it gets -- and that's just like -- that's a clean example, right? Because now you --
Maria Varmazis: Yes, I was going to say.
Ethan Cook: -- have a conversation of they all sort of agree with each other with -- with -- in terms of general, you know, protections on data. But the questions of who owns that data? Is it Canada because it's stored there physically? Is it the website that maybe is owned and -- and operated and headquartered within the UK or is it the individual citizen who is that person who accessed it? And for years, there have been almost like this, I want to call it No Man's Land of data law, where there has been agreements and nudge, nudge, wink, wink, agreements between different countries, kind of saying, "Oh, yes, we're going to try and cooperate on this and figure this out." No one's really taking an outwardly hostile approach, especially between allies, like, you know, the U.S. and the E.U. have generally been more favorable in terms of like kind of negotiating these things out. But it kind of --
Maria Varmazis: Up until now, anyway.
Ethan Cook: Yes, maybe not now. Actually there --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- the -- you get into this, you know, really complicated, legal gray zone of -- of who owns what, who has the right to enforce what, and for the most part, we've gone through this through bilateral agreements, companies taking proactive stances, probably for their own protection, saying "Okay, this is how we define what, like who owns this and what has access to" and being very upfront about that. And they're disgusting terms and services that no one ever wants to read.
Maria Varmazis: Especially the legal teams are always very busy. Like the lawyers love this.
Ethan Cook: Exactly.
Maria Varmazis: It keeps them employed.
Ethan Cook: Yes, they make a ton of money off of it. And you know, you get into the, you know, that kind of conversational point. And it extends far beyond just like website hosting. Let's talk about cloud infrastructure, right? You have AWS or you know, Azure or Google Cloud, which have data centers and hosting platforms across the entire globe. Right? But they're all headquartered in the U.S. So --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- what -- what happens in that, right? And that was, you know, they have to make individual agreements within a country or, you know, to safeguard or say like, "Okay, Japan, we're willing to host a data center here or a cloud service hosting platform here. What are the legal regulations that we have to, you know, kind of hop through and make sure that we are abiding by?" And all of that is kind of the -- the non-space stuff which is --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- just scratching the very surface of it.
Maria Varmazis: But it -- it is remarkably parallel, not just in terms of how complex it is, but I mean even if we're talking macro, the flavor of it all, I mean, that is not a technical term. But if you're just like really zooming out on this in terms of how -- its complexity, we're talking about the -- the gentleman's agreements in terms of how people are cooperating with each other or the legal agreements, and you know, who owns what, what -- what is in whose domain, what about where things are resting versus where things are in transit? I mean, if we're going to be talking about space sovereignty, we could -- it would be silly to not talk about data sovereignty, because they are intertwined.
Ethan Cook: You can't have the conversation without the other.
Maria Varmazis: It's true, it's true. So, now that we've sort of chatted a bit about, you know, we've laid the foundation for data sovereignty is very complex. Europe especially, but certainly not only Europe has a huge renewed emphasis on data sovereignty because of many reasons recently in the last few years, let's just say it. The US becoming increasingly hostile to our allies.
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: I mean there's no other way to put it. There is a -- there is an urgency to data sovereignty, especially within the -- in -- within European nations. And I'm not talking just the EU. I'm talking, you know, Europe's -- Europe and key partners, as well as the UK just sort of generally what -- what we in the United States tend to call Europe, for better or for worse.
Ethan Cook: It's all the same, right?
Maria Varmazis: Right. And I know -- and I know our listeners in the U.K. are not appreciating that, but I'm just admitting our ignorance on that one. So, let's say Europe --
Ethan Cook: It's okay. We're American, right? You know, we -- we -- they just chalk it up to that.
Maria Varmazis: That -- that we're dumb. It's true. So -- so, when we talk about space sovereignty, the -- it is a largely parallel conversation. To me, it's the renewed emphasis on moving away from U.S. space hegemony, because, let's be -- let's be real. The U.S. has really owned a lot of space access for a long time. And especially when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, Europe had been using a lot of Russian space capabilities. They'd been launching a lot of stuff with Soyuz. That went away immediately, understandably. And so, with -- between Russia being out of the picture for European space access and the United States is just not as reliable a partner anymore, the E.U. and the U.K. are looking to grow. They're already very capable, let me be clear, very capable home government industries. These -- these two organizations, both the U.K. Space Agency, or UKSA, and the European Space Agency, extraordinarily capable, humongous industries within both areas that have been supporting these for -- for decades. So, it's not like these are brand new. But there -- there maybe was a sense of, we are working as partners with other countries, and now there's more of a sense of we need to stand on our own. The time is now. There's been sort of calls for this for ages, but maybe there wasn't the same urgency that there is today. What are the questions that space sovereignty is trying to address here, especially within the context of U.K. and Europe -- European space sovereignty. I mean --
Ethan Cook: Yes, great questions.
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: So, I think when you -- when you break down, well, we'll keep it on the Euro front for now, because I -- I think when you expand it to Asia, etcetera, you know, there's a whole host of different drivers. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about why Europe has kind of had this, I don't want to call it a wakeup call because to your point, these calls have been there for a while, but I think maybe facing of reality is kind of a better word, that maybe they're like, "Oh, this is something that's a ten year plan," and they realize "Oh crap, it's more a three year plan."
Maria Varmazis: Yes, yes.
Ethan Cook: Where the -- no one ever wants to say as a country that we're dependent on another country for X or Y. And especially when it's a mission critical thing. The U.S. learned this in the -- you know, in the 70s with -- with OPEC. Right? But when, oh maybe -- maybe relying on oil from another country, when our country requires it is not the best thing in the world. And the U.S. has changed its approach and over the past, you know, couple decades has dramatically reduced that international reliance.
Maria Varmazis: We're going to just leave Strait of Hormuz out of that entirely. Just -- just for giggles.
Ethan Cook: Yes, yes, you know, theoretically it's all -- it's all conceptual.
Maria Varmazis: I'm going to be that capable person this whole show on paper.
Ethan Cook: But so, when you -- when -- I think for Europe, it applies the same way. Right? They, I think over the past 20 years it's fair to say that space has become increasingly year over year, not this isn't something that 20 years ago we went, "Oh crap, this is something we need to focus on." But this is now a now kind of conversation. The -- 20 years ago, we had -- and year over year we've begun to sit there and say, "Okay, space is becoming a really viable commercial and national security enterprise," Right? With missile warning detection systems, commercial satellites for like let's say GPS in our previous conversations, etcetera. There's a -- it's -- it's no longer a select few industries there. It is every year becoming a more and more involved space, for pun intended -- not for a pun not intended. But I think with that, Europe has sat there and said, "Okay, we can rely on the U.S. for support here to help us launch satellites, to help us launch infrastructure for technology, for defense systems, etcetera." And I think with the kind of U.S.'s pivot over the past couple years to a more, you know, isolationist mentality, more, you know, U.S. first mentality, that has woken Europe up to this kind of a conversation that maybe the U.S. is not the person we can rely on anymore.
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: And with that, the pivot has been forced and they have very rapidly doubled down into this pivot.
Maria Varmazis: Yes, the pivot. Much like trying to get a sofa around a tight corner, it's what you've got to do. Speaking of things we must do, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Before the break, producer Ethan Cook and I were discussing some of the driving forces behind Europe's new push for space sovereignty. Let's get back into that now. Yes, and I think it's -- it's worth mentioning specifically in the context of space, I mean how much Russia's invasion of Ukraine has really accelerated this conversation. I -- I don't think it can be overstated. And -- and when we talk about, you know, U.S. influence, in this direction, I mean, to get super specific, I mean the thing that I think of is frankly, Elon Musk making decisions on his own about whether or not to open or close access to Starlink over Ukraine, either for the beginning of the war for Ukrainian soldiers and then later for Russian soldiers. And just this single person essentially putting his thumb on the scale, and Europe going, "Wait a second, if one person in another country can decide that, and this is a service that we are, you know, that Ukraine, and frankly, everybody is very dependent on, that would be Starlink, that is a very terrifyingly vulnerable position to be in." And I don't think anything lit a fire under Europe's bum as much as this.
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: And especially for development of their own sovereign, satellite, you know, military communication capabilities for the IRIS Squared project. I mean, that timeline for IRIS Squared, which is sort of in the vernacular thought of as the European answer, the European owned answer to Starlink, their timeline keeps moving up a year --
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: -- every time they talk about it, which is like the opposite of what most space programs do.
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: It's like, "Yes, it's out more, it's out more." No, this one keeps moving up because they know that you cannot be at the mercy of what some random person in another country decides for something this critical.
Ethan Cook: Yes. And I think that's -- that was what drove the initial conversations of space sovereignty, especially within Europe --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- this -- this mentality of, you know, we are not nearly as independent on this for a ever increasing critical infrastructure sector that we would really like to be. And it was a rude awakening, for many factors that just set them, and they -- they sat back and went, "Okay, we need to start investing." Which is why we have the emergence of not just, European projects for launching, but I think with the emphasis on the E.U. Space Act and --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- core legislation that some of which has, and some of which has not been passed, but is very clearly, regardless of whether it -- what state it is in is a reaction to the E.U. and the UK saying "We cannot rely on what we've been relying on for ten years. We -- we have to -- we have to pivot now. Like, this isn't something we can wait on." And I think, you know, for the E.U. Space Act, they -- they proposed three key pillars and right away they say the first thing that's driving them is safety. Right? They want to have the ability to mitigate space disasters. They want to have the ability to preserve Europe's access to uninterrupted space.
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: They want -- the second thing, resiliency. They want to make sure that their cybersecurity capabilities are a priority. That European space infrastructure. And I think this was probably result of the Ukraine war.
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: They walked away and said, "Oh, what would happen if Viasat happened not just in an isolated area, but across the entire E.U.?"
Maria Varmazis: Yes, that's the 2022 Viasat, hack. Yes, yes. Yes.
Ethan Cook: And like that sitting there going -- that -- we can't -- security is not where it should be right now and we're more vulnerable than we really want to be. And that was a rude awakening. And then lastly, sustainability. And this is to that long-term conversation saying, we -- how do we -- we don't just need to be, you know, independent now, but how do we remain independent for 10, 15, 20 years? How do we get us to the point where, great, we have a -- we don't just have a Starlink for today, but we have a Starlink for the next 20 years.
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: We're in a position where we don't have to rely on whoever the actor is, whether it's a U.S. actor, a Russian actor, a Chinese actor or an E.U. space, like saying even the UK saying, you know, while they're both European, they are different nations, they are different governments, saying that we don't have to rely on one another if we don't want to. It's one thing to say this is a great deal for the short term, let's take it, and another to say we have no other choice but to take this deal.
Maria Varmazis: Right. And nobody wants to be in that position if they can help it. Yes.
Ethan Cook: Exactly.
Maria Varmazis: And those three pillars are really fascinating because I feel like from a space current events nerd, I can, as sort of, as you were doing, I can -- I can point to a specific thing that sort of was the spur for each of those pillars. And for the first one that you mentioned about access to space, that one is Arianespace, in a nutshell right there. And -- and what I mean by that is -- is ensuring European access to space from 20 -- from I think July 2023 to July 2024, Europe did not have their own sovereign launcher available.
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: So, for an entire year, Arianespace's Ariane 6 rocket was behind schedule, and the Ariane 5 had been retired. For an entire year, Europe was like, "We don't have our own rocket to launch things."
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: And I think for some people who maybe have not updated their mental paradigm about how often we are as a human race are launching things to space, one year might not sound like a lot if we're still thinking about --
Ethan Cook: It's a lot.
Maria Varmazis: -- yes, it is a lot. Like, if you're still thinking it like it's 90s or early 2000s and we're using shuttles, maybe that doesn't sound like a lot. But a year is a humongous gap nowadays when we've got SpaceX's Falcon 9 doing over 100 launches a year. I mean that -- a year long --
Ethan Cook: And they're delivering dozens of satellites within just one launch. Right?
Maria Varmazis: Yes, absolutely.
Ethan Cook: Like, it's not just, "Oh, we're putting one thing up per launch." We're putting up these massive amounts --
Maria Varmazis: Dozens.
Ethan Cook: -- there. So that --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- has an impact. And we're not just taking, again to your point, we're not just taking off one. We're taking off 100. Times that by dozens. We're losing hundreds of satellites every year.
Maria Varmazis: Yes, and -- and one -- and a yearlong delay for a space program, even if you were, if -- even if say you are thinking about you know, exquisite satellites like a one off, which again is not generally what's happening. A one-year delay is -- causes a huge ripple effect of delays down the line. I mean it is just -- it is -- it really gums up the works. So, part of the -- the sovereignty gap is also Europe does not launch from the European continent. Their -- their spaceport is in French Guiana which is across the Atlantic Ocean from the European continent. So, that is -- I mean that is the legacy of colonialism right there frankly. But Europe is trying to build sovereign launch capabilities within the continent for at least for, you know, smaller launch that they're not going to -- I don't think they're going to be able to launch like medium to heavy lift from Europe, who knows? But at least for smaller launch, for responsive space missions, they are trying to build -- build out, you know, spaceports and -- and getting that capability really within, you know, continental European soil. But they still don't really have that. And the same goes for the U.K. They -- they've had -- they had horizontal launch from this place called Spaceport Cornwall. But vertical launch, which is sort of the more classic like rocket go up, they -- they don't really have that. And that's a -- that's a big problem. And a lot of the -- the issues that, you know, both the governments are running into, and actually we run into this pretty much anywhere with spaceports, is people don't want to live near a spaceport.
Ethan Cook: No, I wouldn't.
Maria Varmazis: And I mean, yes, I -- I wouldn't either. I mean, I live in New England, and there was talk about putting a spaceport in Maine, and that did not go over very well.
Ethan Cook: No.
Maria Varmazis: So, you know, it's -- it's very hard to find places where you can --
Ethan Cook: People don't want to live by data centers, let alone a rocket launch station.
Maria Varmazis: Exactly. And, you know, because rocket launches, aside from being noisy and polluting, as -- as clean as they -- cleaner as they are compared to how they used to be in, like the 60s, I mean, they can go wrong. We're talking about a missile.
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: So, you need a lot of empty space. So, you know, it's -- you have to build these things nowadays, usually in very remote places. And then, of course, you get issues with the infrastructure that's needed to support that, and you need people who are going to be there to support it. It's a very difficult problem. A very difficult problem. You cannot -- so, I mean, I've -- I've interviewed a bunch of people who are trying to build spaceports, like in the Azores, and there's people trying to build spaceports in remote areas of Scotland. And, you know, progress is being made. But almost always a big part of the issue is, aside from the physical logistics of it, is sort of the political will and local pushback.
Ethan Cook: Well, and I think, you know, you look at space from a localization perspective, and when -- when -- if you're an average person who doesn't really know about space or isn't involved in that, being told that you're going to have a massive project be built in the area that's going to create a ton of noise and some pollution and could explode at any time, you know, you're not going to sell it to the average person, especially when you tell them, "Oh, what do we get from it?" And they're "Oh, nothing much." You know, maybe some jobs. There's like you know --
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: -- that's about it, right? Oh, like oh, they're going to say, "Oh, we're securing the missile defense system for the nation." Like, okay, cool. Why do you have to do that here? Why can't you go build that somewhere else?
Maria Varmazis: Yes, it's a really hard sell. Yes, it's a super hard sell. And I -- I think even when we talk about this again, because we're talking geopolitics, there's an element of culture here that comes into play. And in the U.S., we've been really great at selling our space program. I mean, we've done some awesome, amazing things. NASA's the best. I don't think anybody's ever going to argue with that. And to be very cynical, to use a cynical word, we've -- we've had a lot of really great propaganda about our space program. And I hate using it that way, but I mean, it's -- it's truly like an academic way of talking about propaganda. We have propagandized space in the United States really well, to the point that most Americans --
Ethan Cook: It's why we won the space race.
Maria Varmazis: Right. I mean, most Americans, even if they don't really care about space stuff, most Americans have, like a generally-ish, positive view of it.
Ethan Cook: I mean, when --
Maria Varmazis: That is not the case everywhere else.
Ethan Cook: -- the latest telescope came out and all the newest images were coming out of space, it was a whole thing for like a week within the U.S. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, did you see the latest space?" Like, people who have never talked about space before that I've met are like, "Oh, my gosh, did you see the star?" I'm like, "What?"
Maria Varmazis: Yes.
Ethan Cook: You know, what are we talking about here? Right? But that's --
Maria Varmazis: And then think about, like Artemis II.
Ethan Cook: -- just -- it's the culture.
Maria Varmazis: Yes, it's the culture and Artemis II, like Moon Joy and the viral videos of all the -- all the astronauts being, like adorable around the moon. I mean, that was global to some degree, but I mean there was -- in the U.S., this was not a hard sell. And I would say in Canada, too. Canada's like, you know, they're our buddy. We still love you, Canada. I hope you love us. Not so much right now, but I mean culturally, I mean like ESA and the UK Space Agency doing amazing work, but culturally, it is a much, much harder sell in Europe. People are kind of "No, it's not really our thing." So, you have to get a lot -- you have to get public support for this kind of thing before you can get --
Ethan Cook: Yes.
Maria Varmazis: -- that -- everything starts with public support. And if you don't have that, if people aren't jazzed about it, if they don't understand why this stuff matters, you're not going to get funding. And then everything just stops. [ Music ] And that's "T-Minus Space Cyber Briefing" brought to you by N2K CyberWire. If you like what you heard today, do not miss next week's episode where we'll share the second half of our space sovereignty chat, where we're talking challenges on the horizon and externalities. Where does India fit in all this? And what about NATO? Yes, that's next week. And dare I say, you will also enjoy our newsletter 'Signals and Space." You will get research and notes pulled together by Ethan Cook and me, along with this week's top Space Cyber news stories. Make sure to subscribe by visiting TheCyberWire.com/newsletters. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing cybersecurity landscape. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space@n2k.com. We are proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector, from the Fortune 500 to many of the world's pre-eminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K helps cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how at n2k.com. Thank you for listening to "T-Minus." I am your host Maria Varmazis and the show is produced by Ethan Cook and Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Tre Hester with original music by Elliott Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben with content strategy by Mayan Plout. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. See you next week.
