Afternoon Cyber Tea with Ann Johnson 9.19.23
Ep 81 | 9.19.23

A Lesson on Leadership


Ann Johnson: Welcome to "Afternoon Cyber Tea" where we explore the intersection of innovation and cybersecurity. I am your host Ann Johnson. From the front lines of the digital defense to groundbreaking advancements shaping our digital future, we will bring you the latest insights, expert interviews, and captivating stories to stay one step ahead. [ Music ] Today we have a very special episode of "Afternoon Cyber Tea". I am thrilled, excited to be joined by Deb Cupp who is the president of Microsoft Americas. Deb leads the $70 billion business responsible for delivering the full product and services portfolio of Microsoft to customers based in the United States, Canada, and Latin America. Deb is a self-described "team crazy" leader with a passion for building teams and developing individuals. Deb currently serves as a board member for digital cloud and advisory services for Avanade and serves as a board member for the famed luxury lifestyle leader Ralph Lauren. Prior to Microsoft, Deb led organizations at SAP and Standard Register. She currently lives in the Greater Philadelphia area with her husband Sam and her gorgeous dog Penny. And in her free time, Deb loves biking, hiking, doing yoga, and is an avid Pelotoner. Welcome to "Afternoon Cybar Tea", Deb. I'm just thrilled to have you on.

Deb Cupp: I'm so happy to be here. It's great to be here with you, Ann. Thank you.

Ann Johnson: So, we're going to have a really important conversation on leadership today. I can't think of a better person actually to have this conversation with. We're going to talk about diversity, inclusion, equity, board service. But before we do all those big topics, can we start with your story? You've had this incredible life and this amazing career. And can you tell the audience just a little bit more about you, what led you to your role at Microsoft?

Deb Cupp: Yeah, sure, I'm happy to. So, as Ann had mentioned, I live in the Philadelphia area with my husband and my dog. And come from a family with two siblings, I have a brother and a sister. And we actually were born and raised in this area so I'm probably one of the few people that actually live today in the area that they grew up in, as did my husband. So, that's kind of fun. So, we've known each other for a very long time. Probably a pretty standard upbringing and I'm a big sports advocate. I played -- growing up and I played Division I sports in college and so pretty standard there. I went to college, started right out of college at a company called Standard Register which, believe it or not, this is -- I will share everyone my age. In my original job, I was selling business forms, if you can believe it. So, go way back. But the cool thing about it was, you know, it taught me about workflow. And, you know, everything is kind of based in workflow, how do things move from one place to another. So, I did that for a very long time. I was there for 17 years, and that company went through a tremendous transformation and moved to e-commerce and digital workflow and all those types of things. And then from there, I went to SAP. And I also got super interested in industries at that time. So, first at Standard Register and my first role at SAP was running the healthcare business in the US, and had a bunch of great years there. I was on sort of the traditional side of SAP, and then they went through a bunch of cloud acquisitions, and then I moved to running Success Factors which was one of the cloud acquisitions. And I loved that job, it was very cool, talk about leadership, Ann, and culture was fascinating to think about as a Silicon Valley startup and then SAP, you know, a German -- very large German software company, and bringing those cultures together was a really unique time and quite fun. And so, I did that in total SAP for about six years. And then I came to Microsoft. So, I joined Microsoft and, you know what, I was so -- I was drawn to Microsoft because of the culture frankly. And everything as I was going through my interviews with the company and thinking about is there an area for me that I can make an impact here and will I fit and will I be able to be sort of my authentic self. It just felt good, you know. And I really enjoyed who I spoke with and the experiences that I had. And so, I was at Microsoft -- I've been in Microsoft now about five and a half years, and I started doing -- looking at the enterprise business for Microsoft collectively around the globe and then started working on the industry businesses, and then I moved to running the US, and then a little bit after that, US and Canada, and now the Americas. So, in, I don't know, five minutes or less, that's a sum up of sort of my career how -- what I've gone through and how I got here.

Ann Johnson: You know, you've done a lot -- before I even get to the next topic, you've done a lot. You deserve tremendous credit for being a female leader in tech, which is not an easy thing. And Having had a very long tech career, you know, I can appreciate that. And also, just the diversity of your experience with the industry and leading enterprise globally and then focusing now on three major -- you know, three of the largest markets for Microsoft, right? So, congratulations.

Deb Cupp: Thank you. Thank you. It's been fun.

Ann Johnson: So, I know you love to use this phrase, and I love the phrase, "team crazy". You use it to describe your leadership style and I want to unpack that a bit, right? I think anyone who is a leader has to develop their philosophy along the way in their journey. So, what does team crazy mean to you and how did you end up centering on that as part of your leadership philosophy?

Deb Cupp: Yeah. It's, you know, I think it just describes me well. And I think back to earlier when I was talking about sports, I mean, I grew up playing sports and I've -- and all team sports, by the way. So, I always felt inspired by what teams can create together. And you learn so much being an athlete around people playing their positions. And recognizing that everybody has strengths and everybody has weaknesses or areas of opportunity. And when you put people in positions to do their very best and the team works exceptionally well together, you can accomplish things you could never accomplish as an individual. And it's powerful, it's powerful watching people achieve things collectively together that they didn't think they could. You know, I feel like I'm an arranger, I like to sort of organize people and I believe I can see strengths and I have an ability to sort of get a sense of where they belong and putting them in places to let them thrive. That is -- it gives me energy. I think it gives me an opportunity to say team is everything. And I think it's important the way teams come together collectively. And that could be your own team, that could be teams that are, you know, interacting with others. And as you know well, at Microsoft, we are a highly matrix organization and so everything here is team. You know, everything is about working together to collectively solve a problem for our customer or solve a problem internally. And that doesn't happen without a team. So, I just get joy from watching it. I am interested in it in terms of thinking about people and strengths and organizing them the right way. And there's just so much power and honestly joy in it. That's a big thing for me too in terms of my leadership style is just we work a lot, right, and so, we need to get joy out of the things that we do. And nothing gives me more joy than watching teams succeed.

Ann Johnson: That's so wonderful to hear. And you have this tremendous reputation, right, of hiring great people, developing people, putting people in the right job at the right time. And I think all of that goes to everything you just talked about. So, people are lucky to be on your team. It's really, they have a fortunate opportunity to grow.

Deb Cupp: Thank you.

Ann Johnson: You know, there's a lot of frameworks out there and I know you've developed your own and you've learned from folks over the years, and you've learned from your own mistakes and your successes. But as leaders are coming along behind us, right, as we think about, you know, keeping a ladder there for people to climb, what advice do you have for people on their leadership journey? And what is your favorite source or sources of inspiration that you might recommend to others?

Deb Cupp: Yeah. It's a great question. It's funny, I just had a chance to talk to a bunch of our interns who are -- most of them are still in high school. And the thing that I always like to share with people is that leadership is not a role. And I think people get sort of hung up on the fact that to be a leader, you need to be in a job where you are managing other people. And I think leadership is not a role, it's not a job description, it's how people show up. And for me, it's about guiding and developing, and supporting, and understanding where you're trying to go. So, I think it's always about how do you make sure that you're aligning people up in a way that will solve a problem or accomplish an objective, whatever it might be. But that people need to get out of the mindset of I have to be managing people to be a leader. I think some of the best leaders we all know collectively might not run a team. And who cares? Like the idea is that they can rally and create opportunities for people because of the way they show up. And it's about that guide and that develop and that support. And I think leaders are exceptionally curious. So, for me, it's about asking questions and learning and trying to understand. And so, it's really behaviors in a lot of ways for me around how you show up, are you curious, do you want to understand how you can get best out others. Don't assume, we like to assume. I think we need to be more curious. We don't need to assume. And we create space. So, I think it's about understanding the fact that your impact can be incredibly high regardless of whether you have a team or not. And making sure you understand both the privilege of that and the responsibility. So, I think it's both. It's really that opportunity that we are given, you know, whether we earn it, which most of us do, or even in your own individual contributor role, anyone out there can do this too. And so, I think be curious, think about guiding and developing people. Everything is about people. Everything. So, you accomplish goals because of people. You focus because of people. You execute because of people. You fail because of people. All of those things happen because of people. And as the leader, I think it's always about making sure you bring everybody along, you are inclusive, you think about how you accomplish things together. And the other thing I will say is, as a leader, I firmly believe success is because of others, failure is just because of you. So, I feel very strongly about accountability. That's another part for me when I think about leadership is you have to be accountable for the outcome. And so, when you succeed wildly, I think that's because of your team. If you're challenged, I think you have to take accountability for that and figure out how to solve it. So, you know, it's the cool thing to be able to do, you know, whether, again, you are a leader of people or you do it individually. I think it's a privilege and it's a responsibility.

Ann Johnson: That's a great way of looking at it. And I think there are too many leaders who don't take that accountability, right, they're quick to blame someone on their team. And then people don't trust them. And then the great people don't want to work for them because they don't trust them, and they have choices.

Deb Cupp: Yep.

Ann Johnson: So, love to hear you say that. I want to pivot a little and talk about a topic that's become a little bit of a hot button, right, in recent months and years, which is diversity and inclusion. And I like the use of the phrase that says we will better serve the world when we better reflect the world. And I think that articulates the moral imperative and why we have a business imperative for diversity and inclusion. In my world, you know, of cybersecurity, I often say we need to be as diverse as the problems we're trying to solve. But I would love to get some of your perspective, right, the why, right, of why we do D&I, the how of getting meaningful initiatives off the ground, and how does it drive progress. And what have you seen that works and how do we help navigate some of those challenges that we face every day?

Deb Cupp: Yeah, it's such a good question, Ann. And I think about this one a lot because we haven't made the type of progress that I think that you and I would like to make, right? So, as we think about have we made progress, sure. Have we made enough progress? I don't think so. And so, I've been reflecting on this one quite a bit as we at Microsoft just turn the corner on our annual fiscal year. And, you know, to me, I think it's about intentionality and it's about making it everyone's accountability. And it has to be sort of rooted in the why, to your point, why do we want to do this? And I'm fully aligned with what you said. I think you can't serve unless you represent those that you serve. And it's a diverse world. And if we're not a diverse organization, there's no way that we can represent ourselves and be as effective as we want to be, both from the standpoint of results in addition to just doing the right thing. So, I think there's an intentionality around it. And I believe strongly it's everyone's accountability. And so, we look at Microsoft and we talk about it being, you know, a personal thing that you commit to as a priority. As leaders, you got to lead by example. You have to. It's not optional. So, I think things where, you know, you might have a thought on, "Oh, I really think this person is really good, I'm going to slot a leader," as an example, or "I'm going to slot somebody into a job." That stuff just has to stop. Like you can't allow us not to take a pause and do the work. And I think that's what it comes down to. I don't think people have bad intent, I really don't. I don't think people would say, "I don't want a diverse workforce." I think most people would say they do. But it's work like you actually have to go out and seek the talent and find it, and then you also have to support it. And I think that's the piece that we sometimes miss. So, even if we do a great job bringing in diverse talent, are we doing all the things that we can to support those people to make sure that they have the most potential for success as possible? And I think that's a huge area of opportunity for us as well. So, we have to role model the behavior, we have to support folks, we have to build that support structure around them to make sure that we are finding ways to both make them feel included and connected, but also from a job performance perspective, are we doing everything we can to make sure we understand their point of view that we're creating space to make sure that they have the best success that they can. And then if we ever see a behavior that's non-inclusive, as you know, you and I both have zero tolerance for this, you know, you call it out. Like it's not okay. And so, it's super important that leaders do not stand for it, they do not allow it. That they stand up and they speak out. So, I just think there's a lot more we can do. And I think that's something that we all have to think about. But it has to be intentional, it has to be work. And I think that's not -- we shouldn't think of that as a bad thing, it's a good thing. We've got to work for it because it's important. And that takes extra steps. And we have to allow the space to allow people to take those extra steps if we think about hiring, if we think about jobs, if we think about roles. Work on it so that we create a space that makes it easier. And in my mind, the best success is we never have to talk about this again because it's just happening and there's no reason to have a dialogue about it because it's exactly what we would want it to be. How cool would that be?

Ann Johnson: Yeah. And I mean, today that would be great, that would be very cool. But today, you said it, it's intentional, it's deliberate, it has to be every day, and it is work, right? People ask me how do you have such a diverse team. I say because we work at it every day but we also create space. Once we onboard people, right, we make sure that everyone has an opportunity to be successful. We create that space because retaining people is equally hard and, again, it's intentional, it's deliberate, and it's daily work.

Deb Cupp: That's right.

Ann Johnson: So, speaking of that, what's your perspective on what organizations could and should be doing more to support aspiring women leaders?

Deb Cupp: I think it's, you know, to me, allyship. I can't say enough about it. I think that it is the most important thing. And allies come in all shapes and sizes. And I think it's about feeling accountability for that allyship. And by the way, also getting joy out of it. Like I think there's just an opportunity for us all to have that level of accountability and making sure that we're showing up for any community that we believe needs that support. And it's just -- a good example, Ann, is this week I had a chance to attend an event and it was sponsored by Lesbians Who Tech & Allies. And I was, first of all, so flattered to be invited. And I was so happy to be there as an ally. And that experience made me realize the power. I mean, it was 20 -- maybe 20 women in tech, you know, many who have had very long careers. And I sat there thinking to myself, these types of communities have to come together in a way that we're creating support for aspiring women. And this was actually one of our topics. We said, "What are you --?" And we went around the room and we were like what are you all seeing in your organizations and are you finding that -- are we creating enough support? And support means things like this. One, allyship. Two, check-ins, is there -- do they have a mentor or someone in the organization -- let's be clear, someone in the organization that has some power that is actually supporting them and surrounding them with opportunities, with feedback? Feedback is probably one of the most important things that we can share. Giving them space to create opportunities for them from a career perspective, giving them things to work on that are high profile that, again, show their potential. I think all of that stuff is incredibly valuable. And also, just giving them the space to share frustrations, concerns, to be able to voice things that are on their mind. We can go on for days on this one, right? I think there's a lot we can do. But it's, we just got to start the small steps and it's not hard. Like that stuff isn't hard. Show up as an ally. Like everyone who is listening to this, just show up as an ally, I guarantee you you will make progress.

Ann Johnson: I agree. Because women don't just -- you know, there's an expression that women are over-mentored and under-supported.

Deb Cupp: Yes.

Ann Johnson: And that allyship of being a person in power that can actually sponsor somebody whether or not they're in the room, right? So, hey, have you thought about Sue for this role? You know, have you thought about Jill to take on this responsibility? That's what women need. And speaking of that, we're going to talk about STEM for a minute. There's a lot of -- yeah, there's a lot of research that shows that girls drop out of STEM somewhere between seventh grade, eighth grade that, you know, even if they had interest previously, that interest wanes in their early teen years. Any perspective on how we should tackle that challenge and really keep more girls in STEM? That way we fill the pipeline, right, that way there's more women in tech.

Deb Cupp: Yeah. I couldn't agree more on that. And this one drives me crazy. I was talking to a young lady who is in high school a couple of weeks ago and she made a comment about how she was the only female in one of her classes and she was having a hard time even getting people to partner with her on projects. And I just -- I wanted to scream because I'm like how is this still possible? So, I think there's a lot of things I think we need to do. I think there's for sure early exposure so people -- like programs like we run like DigiGirls, a great way for girls to learn around technology careers, make it fun, make them realize that women do exist in tech and there's lots of incredible opportunities. Sessions and workshops, I think if we all -- think about it, if all of us just did something in our community that allowed us to create exposure for young women and girls to recognize that you can have these amazing careers in this space and that it's absolutely worth it, and your love for STEM doesn't just go away, you're likely kind of stepping away from it because you don't feel included. So, I think that would be incredibly helpful just to make sure that we're creating space for these young girls to realize that there is something there. And I don't know, Ann. I think like we don't have the answers -- all the answers but I think technology companies have to lean in more. I think we just collectively as women all have to lean in more. We have to sort of take some responsibility for this so I think that's important. And I think, you know, honestly we should even think about how do we create more education for teachers in schools to make sure that they're retaining these wonderful talented girls who are exiting like how do we make sure that they're also in schools whether it's guidance counselors, etc., just helping them understand the value of these careers I think could be really powerful. But this one is another one too that I think we just -- we have to continue to work on and we're going to have to chip at it like step by step.

Ann Johnson: Yeah. Like you said, be role models, be really visible, and be really active. There's, you know, DigiGirls and there's Girl Security that focuses on cybersecurity. Yeah, so all those organizations are incredibly important. Well, let's pivot and talk about boards, right? I'm on a couple of boards, you're on boards, in some pretty, you know, significant organizations. I think there's a lot of mystery about what serving on a board means. I think that listeners, you know, on the podcast can be a little intimidated about how they even get started. So, can you demystify it a little bit for our listeners on what is truly expected when you serve on a board? How did you get to your first board service? And what surprises were there?

Deb Cupp: Yeah, sure. So, oh, it was an interesting process, Ann. And I think it's very different depending on what type of board. So, I think I would first start by saying when people say I want to join a board, I think you have to understand what you're actually saying. So, part of it is the demystifying is also somewhat of understanding just what a board is. So, there is nonprofit boards, there's for-profit boards, there's startup boards, there's, you know, boards of public companies. So, there's all different types of boards. So, I think one thing I always encourage people to do is just learn about the opportunities across different types of boards. Most people will start in a nonprofit or a local board. It could be anything that you just have an opportunity to step in and provide some guidance or leadership, and I'll get to it in a second what that actually looks like. And I think it's, as we know, it's a great opportunity to kind of get outside your company or your existing job and kind of both contribute in a different way and also learn, which I think is pretty amazing. So, the other thing I would say is why we're even doing it. So, I think that's important like what do you want out of a board? Like what do you want? Not what are you going to give, but what do you want? And I think that's also super important because that will drive the decisions you choose to make as you make your way along in terms of making some decision processes. You know, what do you do on a board? So, I can -- you know, I'm on a joint venture board which is Avanade, which is between Microsoft and Accenture, it's a joint venture. I'm also on a public board for Ralph Lauren. So, you do different things on boards. So, in essence, you have fiscal accountability for the outcome of that company. So, think of a board as like you are the boss of the CEO, I think is probably the best way -- the easiest way to say it. And you have an accountability to review strategy, to review financials. Boards also have things called committees. And so, boards will spend time together collectively on board meetings and then they'll also spend time in committees. So, I happen to sit on an audit committee, there's finance committees, there's, you know, governance committees, nomination committees, there's all sorts of committees and they can be a little bit different, depending on the board. So, you will spend time understanding the company's mission, vision, objectives, strategy. You will spend time understanding their financials and their performance. You will spend time providing guidance and input on those strategies and perhaps on their financial performance. You will spend time talking about talent, which is pretty awesome. You'll spend time learning about the talent of the organization, you'll spend time on succession. You'll spend time on all sorts of things around just general practice of how a company operates. So, it's really widespread. Boards always look for people with different potential and capabilities. So, when you ask, Ann, sort of how did I come to serve on Ralph Lauren as an example. So, oftentimes you are -- you either know people or people know you, or you're engaged with board recruiting firms. Boards will often -- or companies will reach out to board recruiting firms and start to find people that fit a particular category of what they're looking for. Depending on the makeup of the board, the company will look for certain characteristics. So, in my example, technology obviously was, you know, as someone -- they were looking for somebody who had a technology background as we think about digital transformation, etc. That was an area that they needed to fill in terms of what they believed was the capability that they needed on the board. So, they'll go through that experience. And that's different for every company depending on exactly what's happening and ultimately what gaps they believe they have. So, I think the board thing is super interesting. I think the other thing that might be surprising to people is it's very time-consuming. So, if you do it right, you're going -- there's an absolute expectation of the time that you spend on the board during the year and that's not just board meetings, so I think some people think you just pop in for a board meeting and then you're out. That's not the way it works. So, you have to remember the fact that you'll be sitting on a board, you'll be sitting on a committee likely. And then there's a ton of work in between where for me, I'm just finishing -- just actually up on my first year so you do an onboarding program so you spend some time going through onboarding and learning the company and this is, you know, for public companies. So, I think people don't realize it's time-consuming and that you really have to understand why you want to do it. And then ultimately, once you figure that out, then you determine the type of company that you're looking for. And I would say my biggest, biggest advice is that you look for culture matches and that you spend a lot of time -- they're going to interview you, but you're also going to be interviewing them. So, you're spending a lot of time figuring out if you have a culture match, if you like the type of work that company does, I think that's important. Ann, as you know, I adore the fashion space so it was a great fit for me just from the standpoint of the space that Ralph Lauren is in. But I also love the people, I love the culture. It felt like a really good fit for me. And I knew that they wanted my input. So, for me, it was important to be on the board to provide value, not to check a box, right? So, some -- you know, there are some out there that are trying to fill quotas, I'm just going to say it. That was not for me. That's not what I wanted. So, I was clearly looking for getting engaged with a company that wanted somebody who would provide input and who also fit the culture that I was looking for. So, probably a longer answer than you wanted. But this is a super interesting topic and I get a ton of questions on this one for sure.

Ann Johnson: No, it's a super important topic, right? I'm on a couple of boards and I'll tell you the one thing that I always, you know, you said, you're interviewing them. And that's an incredibly important part because typically what I ask them is what do you want, why me? What role do you see in me filling on your board? And then I can tell them whether I can fill that role or not, right? Yeah. Because and you get a variety of answers to that question. You know, but I want to see thoughtfulness about me as a board member, not just the next board member. So, you know, what is it about me? So, with that, you know, when you think about the board and you think about business leaders, how do organizations improve the representation of women at very senior levels, including boards? And do you have a bold call to action here?

Deb Cupp: Yeah. You know what I think, Ann? We all know a lot of people. And so, one of the things that I committed to after I joined the board is I made -- you know, I met a lot of people through that process and I realized I know a lot of amazing women who also want to be on board. So, I personally just took a list of people, I emailed all the contacts that I made in recruiting firms, other companies, and I just said, "Hey, here are some amazing women. So, as you are looking for -- if you're searching for another board candidate at another company, I'd ask you to give these folks a call." It was so easy. You know, you create connections for upwards to 20 people in a minute. So, if everybody just did that. Like I am so grateful as I started my board journey for the women who talked to me before I even knew what I wanted to do. And that's the other call to action I would have, if somebody calls you and says, "Hey, can you just talk to me about what it means and how I do this," take the call. You know, help somebody out. If everybody does that, it doesn't matter if you're a man, woman, it doesn't matter, take the call, help somebody else out, provide a list of incredibly qualified people that you know you know and pass them around. That will help so many people think about the great talent that's out there. Because I think, Ann, women don't advocate for themselves just well, they just don't. You know, women tend to grind it out, they put their head down and they go for it. Someone has to advocate. So, I think we all have that responsibility. If everyone on this call just took a list of the talented people they know and sent it to every person they know that might be looking -- sent it to all your board search firms that you know, I guarantee you we'd end up placing who knows how many women on boards in the next year.

Ann Johnson: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I think that's incredibly important because we all know great women. And if you are on the board, you get the calls every day from recruiters for other board members.

Deb Cupp: That's right. Yep. That's right.

Ann Johnson: As we wrap up, we always want to wrap up with optimism, that is part of this podcast. And we like to send our listeners off with one or two key takeaways and some inspiration. So, Deb, what keeps you energized and optimistic in our world of technology?

Deb Cupp: Ann, I've got to say we just did our kick-off. So, every year at Microsoft, we do our field kick-offs. And we just finished that last week. And I was reflecting as we were putting together the content, thinking about what I wanted to say. And, you know, for me personally just moving into this new role in the Americas. And I got to say, I haven't been this excited about our space in a long time. And you know me, I'm a pretty positive person. So, I often find, you know, the positive in everything. But I am so energized by what technology can bring and the problems it can solve. And, you know, there's a lot of discussion on AI, as everybody knows. But, you know, I had the chance last week to spend time at a major health institution in the US and I was blown away by the work that they were doing around pancreatic research and how they were helping babies in the NICU. And it was all possible because of technology. And so you see things like that and you realize the technology that we're building has created these outcomes that did not exist even a year ago. And if we can save even one more baby, it's worth it. If we have a chance to detect pancreatic cancer one month earlier or three months earlier like you can impact mortality rates. So, I just get so inspired by the potential. And I also love the fact that technology is reaching so many more people now than it did before. And I just think that gives hopefully, back to our STEM conversation, hopefully even that will inspire young women and young children to think about what could I do in that space as I grow up. So, I'm incredibly inspired right now. I think that the opportunities are out there. People are excited and energized about the potential and I'm just -- I feel privileged that we get to be a part of it.

Ann Johnson: Thank you so much. And I couldn't agree more. By the way, it's a great time. It really is a time to be optimistic. I really appreciate you making the time. I know how busy you are. So, thank you for joining me today.

Deb Cupp: Ann, it was my pleasure. Any time, you know I'm a huge fan of yours and the work that you've done collectively. Just incredible. You're such an amazing representation of women in technology and it's just a pleasure to be with you. So, thank you.

Ann Johnson: Thank you. And many thanks to our audience for listening. Join us next time on "Afternoon Cyber Tea". [ Music ] I invited Deb Cupp to be on the podcast because she's just this tremendously optimistic female executive in tech who's had a substantial career. She's a wonderful leader. She brings people along. She mentors and develops people. She has such good energy. And it was an amazing conversation. I know everyone will enjoy it. [ Music ]