Ghosts on screen.

Ben Yelin: Hello, and welcome to Caveat, N2K CyberWire's, Privacy, Surveillance, Law and Policy Podcast. I'm Ben Yelin from the University of Maryland Center for Cyber, Health, and Hazard Strategies. Sitting in for Dave Bittner today is Ethan Cook, lead analyst and editor of the Caveat blog. Hey, Ethan.

Ethan Cook: Hey, guys.

 

Ben Yelin: On today's show, I discuss the legal and ethical issues surrounding Sora, the tool being used to make AI-powered videos of deceased celebrities. Ethan has the story of Taiwan Security Bureau releasing a report detailing recent Chinese hacking efforts and how they compare to the past years. While the show covers legal topics and I am a lawyer, the views expressed do not constitute legal advice. For official legal advice on any of the topics we cover, please contact your attorney. All right, Ethan. We're flying solo today. We are orphaned. There is no Dave Bittner. This is --

 

Ethan Cook: We've taken over.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. This is the two of us giving it our best shot. So I guess I can go first with the story, if that's okay with you.

 

Ethan Cook: Absolutely. By all means.

 

Ben Yelin: So my story comes from the Washington Post. It is about OpenAI and its AI-powered Sora. I don't know if you've used Sora. I've used it to mess around a little bit.

 

Ethan Cook: I would say I've dabbled with it, but I have not -- I would not say I've used it to the same extent I've used ChatGPT.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. Same here. But, unlike ChatGPT, I guess ChatGPT has some functionality with this now too. But you're not just creating text or images. You can create very realistic videos. Some of them are really funny. I mean, I scroll through some of them on social media, and it'll be like a fake football press conference talking about how -- a quarterback saying that they threw the game, and it's their fault that they lost the other team. And that's a funny use of that technology. But there are more serious uses. And the one that's come up recently that's been controversial is the use of deceased celebrities and historical figures. So the technology uses voice cloning and personality modeling to recreate the speech and mannerisms of individuals who have died. And this raises significant ethical and legal concerns, and states are kind of just trying to figure out how to address this issue. There are kind of two legal aspects of this. One is the intellectual property aspect. Tennessee has actually taken the lead in this. They passed something called the ELVIS Act, which is an acronym. Obviously refers to Tennessee's own Elvis Presley. But, basically, it says that you cannot use somebody's likeness to produce AI videos. And it gives the estate a private right of action in perpetuity that could hold users accountable if they make these types of videos. Other states have had similar laws, although most other states have timelines attached to the laws. So 70 years or 50 years after a person's death, they are not allowed to use that likeness. So that's kind of one solution to it. That's about the intellectual property. Like, we don't want people to make money by producing a new Elvis song in the year 2025. But then there's kind of the inappropriate use of people's likeness, which I think is a different issue entirely and presents different legal and ethical concerns. So they mentioned a couple of celebrities here. Malcolm X, of his descendants has complained about people sending him videos of Malcolm X doing and saying things, referencing things in the modern era. Zelda Williams, who went to my high school. She was -- she was a freshman when I was a senior. Her father was Robin Williams. And she very publicly went on social media and said, Stop sending me AI slot videos of my father. Like, it's insulting to his memory. I don't want to see it. And you can't blame her. The issue is, like, there's not really much that the legal system can do to stop this type of thing from happening. If people aren't seeking to profit off it, if you're not trying to sell a comedy special of AI-generated Robin Williams content, then it's really just about appropriating their likeness. And I think states are just trying to wrestle with how they can stop this from happening, to protect the reputation of people without interfering with free speech rights because you want to allow people to do things like parody. And that's generally the way the law has worked with videos of historical figures because it's kind of a transformation of that figure and their historical work. But how far is too far is really the question. So it just is really interesting from an ethics perspective, whether this could distort legacies; whether there are some people who aren't aware that the celebrity has died and thinks, you know, that they're actually saying something. And then the legal issue about this -- this right of publicity. So I'm kind of interested in your take on all this. And it's just something that fascinated me.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. From a -- so to -- like, you know, following that breakdown in between IP and, like, I guess the ethical perspective, I think the IP perspective, I like Tennessee's law. I wish it was something that we did across the board. I think putting a timeline on it is incredibly subjective. And I would rather -- I would rather put it this way, which is, unless, if you get the estate's permission, no; and just leave it at that. And I don't care if the person has been dead 10 years. I don't care if the person's been dead 70 years. Just no because I -- even outside of musician, like, I think you can get into really blurry zones with, like, politics. Oh, you know, JFK came out and supported me, you know. And it's like, Oh, he's been dead for 100 years. But, you know, there's just a gravitas to that name. And, like, you know, and, like, making a fake thing; and especially with people not being able to discern AI from reality, especially as people -- yes, AI has gotten more advanced. I think you kind of get down this rabbit hole. Yeah. I don't think anyone's going to magically think that -- that, you know, JFK is alive. But maybe you can make a video that is construed in a way that makes it look like he supported the same policies, right?

 

Ben Yelin: Yes, yes. I mean, that is more of an issue.

 

Ethan Cook: Exactly, right? So now I think you're getting into this thing. It's like, yeah, thing. It's like, yeah. I don't think anyone's going to think that George Washington's coming out and saying, Yeah. I'm a big fan of XYZ politician. The guy's been dead for, you know, better part of two centuries. But the flip side of that being, okay. What happens if he comes out -- you know, someone makes a fake video saying, you know, he's a big fan of this or this policy. Well, you know, someone sees that. They don't know it's fake. They're like, Oh, my God. You know, there's a -- there's a voice recording, and it's of his speech that he read, right; and that means it's real. And they can't discern the fact that it's not.

 

Ben Yelin: I mean, we have an entire podcast on the N2K CyberWire Network about social engineering. And, you know, I think the unspoken reason why that podcast is so popular is that people fall for a lot of things that they really shouldn't be falling for. So maybe, you know, George Washington's been dead long enough, but use the JFK example you gave. Like, let's say somebody put up a video --

 

Ethan Cook: Or Reagan.

 

Ben Yelin: Or Reagan. You know, let's use Reagan as an example. And somebody put up a video of Reagan talking about the importance of abortion rights or something, which is clearly something he didn't believe in. And that could end up tricking people, and it could be very misleading. Now, in a normal course of action, if that person were alive, you think the proper remedy here would be a defamation suit, right? So something that ruins Ronald Reagan's reputation, when Ronald Reagan is alive, he would have the opportunity to sue somebody to protect his reputation. That cause of action dies when the person dies. So his or her heirs cannot bring that cause of action, which is kind of a -- maybe not a flaw, but it is a bit of a loophole in our legal system that allows people to make these types of videos without really any repercussions.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. I think it goes back to, you know, the concept that we have, even taking away from the dead side of it, there's been a couple bills passed on AI regarding deepfakes, specifically used for, like, revenge porn and going after people that way. And so not every state but a lot of states are starting to codify and say that this is something you cannot do and that it's a legal -- you know, charges filed against you, etc. And, obviously, when you get into someone who's already passed, it's a -- it's -- can they sue -- the person's gone. Like, what -- to your point, what legal rights do they have in that sense is. But I think there's a dynamic where -- the way I see it as is, if we don't take proactive measures to stop this, I see this as being kind of the cat's out of the bag with social media that we're at, at this point where social media is so ubiquitous now you can't escape it. And we are now trying to play catch-up from 10 years of very harmful algorithms that are proven to cause distress to minors, proven to cause distress to people who, even in their early 20s, etc. spread disinformation. And we're now trying to put the lid on it, but the genie is out of the bottle. It's -- we can't.

 

Ben Yelin: Totally. And so that creates kind of a dilemma for the big AI company. So OpenAI, it seems to me they don't really know what to do about this. They developed a policy recently saying we're going to protect free speech in depicting historical figures, but they will now allow the representatives of recently deceased public figures to request that their likeness be blocked from Sora videos. But they didn't define recent, you know. So somebody like Robin Williams died 12 years ago. And that -- like, it's very --

 

Ethan Cook: Is that recent?

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. It's very unclear to me if that would count as recent. And then, you know, there could be a video of somebody from the 1960s, as you said, that would have that same effect where people might believe that that's actually something that Martin Luther King or, you know --

 

Ethan Cook: You know, put it -- you know, put it black and white. Make the -- distort the footage to make it look like it's, you know, from the '60s. And mess with the audio a little bit, and make it look like, Oh. That was a '60s speech. That was, oh, uncovered MLK speech found, right.

 

Ben Yelin: We talked about how we should all, you know, have guns and stand our ground. Like, that's the -- that's the type of thing that you're seeing on social media. Now, what OpenAI is saying is, okay. If we have these strict rules, then the lesser companies, in their view, the smaller companies but the ones who still have the capability to create this type of functionality, they're just going to let people do whatever they want. And then we're going to lose our competitive advantage to, you know, bro meme AI software, etc. And I think it's bad for their bottom line, obviously, to lose that advantage. But also, like, they kind of think it's not great if we're punished for being the only company that's trying to be responsible. So there is kind of a collective action problem here where the first mover on this, the first company that tries to actually rein this in, they will be --

 

Ethan Cook: Put a nail on the coffin.

 

Ben Yelin: Exactly. And they're going to be at a competitive advantage because this stuff is funny, and it does get views. Even if it's not funny, it does get views on particularly Facebook, which I don't know about you, Ethan. Are you on Facebook?

 

Ethan Cook: I am on it, but do I use it? No.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. I mean, I barely use it anymore because I would say, like, at least 50% of my news feed is complete AI slop. And, like, it's stuff that doesn't even make sense. It'll be like, here's what Travis Kelsey said about Charlie Kirk. And it's like he never said that. It's a fake quote. But they -- there are thousands of comments, and people believe it. And, like Zuckerberg obviously knows this is happening. And he's doing nothing to stop it because --

 

Ethan Cook: Because he's getting the profit off of it.

 

Ben Yelin: Exactly.

 

Ethan Cook: Ad revenue. There's engagement metrics, etc. To your point, I don't think -- I don't think we can wait for companies to decide that they are going to do something about it because, see, I don't -- I don't think any company, especially with how competitive the AI landscape is right now, are going to willingly shoot themselves in the foot for the sake of morality. We're not at that point yet. I think there's companies who recognize that it's valuable to do this, but they're not going to be the first one, to your point, walk through that door. I think this is something that has to be led by a federal authority, which I -- unfortunately, I just don't see coming, given the administration's deregulatory stance on AI, which I understand from that perspective, right. They want America to be the top dog in AI for the next 10 years. They -- and flip that over to Europe. You see Europe starting to remove a lot of their guardrails right now because they recognize that they put up a lot of guardrails to protect people from these problems. And AI companies said, Okay. Well, we're just not going to invest in you. We're going to invest and put our hundreds of millions of dollars into somewhere else.

 

Ben Yelin: And we'll go to China, and they'll let us do this. And, you know, they will reap the benefits of whatever economic benefit AI is producing. I agree with you that this needs to be something addressed at the federal level. You know, the problem is, like, there's probably not that large of a constituency behind this. When you think about something like revenge porn, that could end up affecting a lot of people, not just celebrities. But, like, anybody whose picture or voice is on the internet can be scraped and used for that purpose. So you have a lot of potential victims. Here, like, most people aren't direct descendants of deceased celebrities. So, like, I'm not sure that I could imagine there being the same type of groundswell. You know, I do think there are --

 

Ethan Cook: I think you'd have to pull it in a -- I think it has to be a part of a package. I don't think you could make any individual law that's like, ah, yes. Celebrity or politicians, right? You'd have to be something that it's a addendum or it's a line item in a larger bill that we kind of all just look and say, yeah. Like, that's a great thing. Let's put that in there. But that's not the main focus of the bill. The main focus on the bill is X, Y, and Z.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. It would be part of, like, a broader AI regulatory measure. And we've seen Congress dabble in it. I mean, they passed this year, as we've discussed, the Take It Down Act, which allows people to take down or request take downs on content that depicts them in a sexually explicit manner. So Congress, when it wants to act and it's something that has bipartisan support, I think could act; and I agree that this could be part of a larger AI package. But, yeah. I mean, this is just a great example of it's an issue probably I would not have foreseen being a problem even two or three years ago because the technology just had --

 

Ethan Cook: Will Smith eating -- Will Smith eating spaghetti. There was nowhere close.

 

Ben Yelin: It was nowhere close. Even the best deepfake videos, like, I've seen those Tom Cruise ones where he's giving golfing tips. Or the Drake song where he -- somebody created a very realistic sounding Drake song using AI. And a lot of people didn't realize that it had been AI generated. But, even since then, the technology is so much better. Like, it is legitimately convincing if you are not discerning. And I think that's not good when it comes to the reputation of historical figures, the accuracy of what those historical figures said. And then, you know, the people like the descendants of these celebrities who have no legal rights to stop people from making AI slop about their deceased relatives.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. I'm right there with you on it.

 

Ben Yelin: We will be right back after these messages from our sponsor. Ethan, why don't you share your story with us.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. So I got some news coming out of East Asia. Taiwan just released -- its National Security Bureau just released a new report detailing the number of cyberattacks it's experiencing, specifically coming from China and what they refer to as China's online troll Army. Worth noting that these attacks are increasing year over year. They marked a 17% increase when -- are now seeing on average per day 2.8 million attacks. It's growing, and this follows a couple escalations that happened over the past two weeks. The first escalation or the most recent one was China put out a bounty for a Taiwanese psyops unit, which they accuse of flaming the fans of separatism, and are offering a $1,400 reward targeting 18 core people related to that operations group. And that follows an additional escalation from -- from China or from Taiwan where they put out a emphasis and a statement that they are going to double down into increasing their national security, investing into their defense. So we're seeing tensions get a little higher, again, in that region. We had a kind of calming down period for, I would say, the past 9 to 12 months. But it looks like things are starting to get intense again.

 

Ben Yelin: So you know what this reminded me of when I was just seeing things like psyops and gray zone tactics and eroding public confidence in current leaders and cyber defenses? This reminds me of the Russia disinformation stuff that came in the 2016 election. So I know a lot of people, when they think about, like, Russian involvement in the 2016 election, think about hacking the DNC's emails and leaking them to WikiLeaks; and that was a big element of it. The other one was a social media manipulation campaign. And we'll never get proof as to how successful it was, but they were pretty good at it. Like, they created a --

 

Ethan Cook: They have it down to a science.

 

Ben Yelin: Totally. Like, they know our schism points. And they know what's going to get people riled up and upset and at whom. So they'll post racially insensitive material. I mean, I remember Baltimore was in a very vulnerable spot in 2016. We had just gone through the Freddie Gray unrest. And there were all these Facebook posts later determined to be from Russian disinformation bots just kind of trying to rile up racial tensions. And, you know, they were smart enough to know how to, like, micro target that stuff. And it sounds like that's what the Chinese operation is here in Taiwan.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. And I think that this is -- so, you know, to double down on that a little bit, I think there is a dynamic which people often forget when we talk about disinformation campaigns, which is their goal is not to pick a side. Their goal is to get people angry at each other and to cause a nation to turn inward on itself instead of looking to the outward threats that are very real. So, you know, I think a great example of this outside of 2016 is the Ukraine invasion. Leading up to that, Russian ops in terms of disinformation, misinformation, intentional sabotage, and all these things were very present. And we forget about that now because we are so focused on the actual conflict. But people forget that that was a massive lead-up. And that was a conversation; and there was telltale signs that this was an effort to destabilize Ukraine, to make that upcoming invasion easier for them to pull off, whether that be removing key leadership people or getting people less likely to join the military when the invasion came, etc. And I see that here.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. I think that point's very well taken. Like, you don't have to get people to believe the content that you're posting. The goal is to muddy the waters enough so that they distrust official news sources. That's the goal. Then it's like, oh. You know, I can't really trust anyone; so I'm just not going to believe what I hear.

 

Ethan Cook: Or they distrust that the government can -- they can rely on it, right? So, if an invasion happens, or if there are tensions, or let's say there's a medical thing, they go, Oh, I'm not -- last time I went, that medical -- that hospital was, you know, constantly being attacked, right? Like, I'm going to not go there. I'm not going to invest my time in there. Or, oh, you know, that telecommunication -- telecommunications brand, it's so unreliable. I'm not going to do this one that is reputable and we know. I'm going to go to a external party that maybe is not as good or maybe is already been compromised, etc. It's this effort to destabilize it. The report emphasizes that they're going after medical systems. They're going after defense, telecommunications, and energy systems. Those aren't things that people are talking about on the news. Or, you know, there are -- in chat forums, those are alongside the over 10,000 quote, unquote abnormal social media accounts that they found disseminating this misinformation. You put those efforts together; it's not just to our point. It's not just a let's go after social media and get people angry. It's let's destabilize the entire nation. Let's weaken it from a people standpoint, from supporting it, and let's weaken it from an infrastructure standpoint.

 

Ben Yelin: Can we talk a little more about this bounty program? Because I'm not sure I completely understand it. So China is issuing a bounty for the Taiwanese psyops unit for separatism. So it's $1,400, which kind of doesn't seem like a huge amount.

 

Ethan Cook: It's not a lot.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. For a bounty.

 

Ethan Cook: I think it's more of a message.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah.

 

Ethan Cook: It's more of one of those, in part, probably because they recognize that, you know, they can't actually get to these people, right? Like, they're not going to invade Taiwan for --

 

Ben Yelin: Right, right.

 

Ethan Cook: That's not what's going to start this.

 

Ben Yelin: At least I hope not.

 

Ethan Cook: I think it's more of a -- yeah. I think it's one of those things where it's a, Hey, we know who you are; and we're paying attention to this. And we -- you know, I think it's a lot of chest pumping and a lot of, you know, smacking the chest, etc.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. I think that that's a big part of it. I think a lot of it is, if you have a bounty on separatists, then you can kind of use your social media disinformation skills to -- through that campaign to spread more campaign lies, fake videos, operating illegal radios. And you can try to manipulate public opinion through those channels, kind of in a -- in a broader effort to bring down the psyops unit.

 

Ethan Cook: And just for some context for people who may not fully understand the Taiwan China situation, when we refer to separatism coming from China's side, people, if they aren't fully aware of the tensions there, Taiwan is considered -- China considers Taiwan to be a part of its nation state; and it is one whole China. There is no Taiwan. Taiwan is not its own nation. And so, when they say separatism, they're saying that these group of people are trying to get Taiwan to split, become its own nation and which, obviously, China has been very adamant that that is -- they're never going to allow happen. And, on the flip side, Taiwan recognizes itself -- its government currently recognizes itself as its own nation, which is just, you know, this back and forth has been brewing for years. And a very intense situation that has, you know, had its ups and downs. And, you know, I would imagine that it's going up again. And there are some concerns, from what I've been reading, that it's going to get a little bit more intense over the coming months.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. I mean, you worry about all of this turning into something more kinetic. This has been an issue since the late 1940s. I mean, after the Communist Revolution, the non-Communists were exiled to what is now Taiwan. And I think the fear for a long time, particularly over the last I'd say decade or so, is that we're getting close to that dreaded armed conflict. And I think everything else that goes into these types of campaigns is kind of gearing up for a day that we hope will never come. And I think Western countries, who are largely very supportive of the cause of Taiwan, have been fretting about for a long time.

 

Ethan Cook: And I think this ties back to another underlying thing that, you know, kind of outside of the whole China's implications of losing a territory and the -- the enacted -- the global embarrassment that would occur from that on -- from their perspective, as well as from Taiwan wanting its own independence, there is this underlying -- and it came up, actually, during the 2020 election, which is the value of chip making.

 

Ben Yelin: Right, right.

 

Ethan Cook: It is no secret that Taiwan is the global leader in chip making at the moment. They are -- they've positioned themselves incredibly valuably, not just for Europe -- Asian relations but all of Europe, a lot of American relations. And it's not just the ability to create but the ability to innovate on chip making. And that has been a huge sticking point for Western nations defending Taiwan because they recognize, if China comes in and takes all of it over and is running it, that puts a huge instability in supply chains that are now -- you know, 2020 proved it with COVID -- the most critical, one of the most critical things in our modern day.

 

Ben Yelin: Right. I mean -- and we just rely on this type of chips technology for a greater percentage of things that we do in our everyday lives. And I don't think we can fully comprehend what a interruption to that supply chain would look like, especially since, you know, we've -- there have been legislative efforts, the CHIPS Act, to increase chips production in the United States. But correct me if I'm wrong. Like, we haven't stood that up at a sufficient level where we aren't reliant --

 

Ethan Cook: No. And we're years away from it.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah, yeah. So, if this conflict gets serious and kinetic over the next couple of years, then besides, obviously, the human rights aspect of it and the -- just the terrible nature of any global conflict of this type, it's going to have significant economic implications for the United States.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. And I think there's -- you know, going to that, which is, you know, talking about the escalation, it's why over the past year we've seen a very deepening of ties between the US, even further on -- than under Biden, which, worth noting, under Biden, they were -- they were very tight. But they are furthering -- you know, double downing. The Trump administration is double downing on these relations. We saw -- earlier this year, I remember that Taiwan released in its annual or biannual security report that they are going to be investing in joint security operations for cybersecurity tabletop exercises with the US military. In the Big, Beautiful Bill, we saw a ton of money get allocated for Asia Pacific operations for cybersecurity. And we just -- in the report that came out Friday, last Friday, on October 10, the China -- or Taiwan said it is going to further invest in its, quote, T-Dome project, which is -- it's a inter -- it's a missile interception program to further secure itself.

 

Ben Yelin: So kind of like an Iron Dome.

 

Ethan Cook: Exactly. And, in fact, when making that, when announcing that, they specifically referenced the US is making its -- I think what Trump called --

 

Ben Yelin: The Golden Dome or something along those lines.

 

Ethan Cook: Yes.

 

Ben Yelin: Everything is golden with him.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah.

 

Ben Yelin: It has to be.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. And the -- the, you know, outside of just being able to intercept missiles at a very high -- at a much higher rate than traditional, it's a clear sign that this -- that the nation is further deepening its ties with Western nations to get its -- that tech and that security. But also I think it's a sign to China, saying that, you know, if you're going to come in here, it's going to be costly. This is not going to be a pushover.

 

Ben Yelin: Right. I think -- and not to get this too complicated in international affairs, but I think that's been a big unstated implication of the entire Ukrainian conflict is how strongly are Western countries going to react to something like this? Are we, a country like Russia or China, able to get away with invading a smaller country without facing the type of existential repercussions? And, you know, that kind of remains to be seen at this point, although it's been much harder for Russia militarily than I think anybody would have expected.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. I think, you know, Ukraine was a big one in terms of defying expectations. I think, when that all happened, everyone's like, Oh, it's -- this is going to go so fast that the Goliath that is Russia is going to roll over Ukraine. And, I mean, here we are years later, and it -- Russia's made progress, but it's not made the progress that I think everyone was expecting it to make.

 

Ben Yelin: Yeah. It's ultimately still a stalemate that needs to be resolved, probably diplomatically.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah. I think that's the -- it's kind of turned into a war of slow attrition rather than a -- that kind of boom that -- you know, that kind of instant attack takeover that we were expecting. And I think to bring it back to Taiwan in this report, I think the heightening of tensions regarding psyops and regarding this misinformation that's been going on, I think we look at -- to tie it back to a previous conversation we had earlier in this episode regarding AI, I think that these misinformation, they were already good years ago. But I think they're only going to get better and more invasive as these technologies continue to develop. And now you can have them make misinformation so fast, spread information so fast, engage with these others so fast. And, from what I understand and from what I look at, it doesn't look like social media companies are really that interested in turning these conversations off.

 

Ben Yelin: No. Absolutely not. Especially ones that might be run by companies with close relations to the Chinese government, not to name names.

 

Ethan Cook: Yeah.

 

Ben Yelin: Well, those are our stories for today. If you have a story that you would like to see discussed on this show or any feedback for us, please send us an email at caveat@n2k.com. So how did we do, Ethan? Do you think -- think they're going to let Dave back from vacation, or are -- did we permanently take this over?

 

Ethan Cook: Maybe. I don't know. We'll have to run it by the -- you know, the head, the higher ups and see. I think we put a strong case in.

 

Ben Yelin: I think we did too. And, you know, if Dave wants to extend his vacation, I think he's -- he's earned that right. But thanks, Ethan.

 

Ethan Cook: I would agree.

 

Ben Yelin: Thanks, Ethan, for joining me. And I agree with you, that I think we pulled this off.

 

Ethan Cook: Awesome. You have a good one, Ben.

 

Ben Yelin: Thank you. And that is Caveat brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to caveat@n2k.com this episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. The show is mixed by Tre Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Ben Yelin.

 

Ethan Cook: And I'm Ethan Cook.

 

Ben Yelin: Thanks for listening.