Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies 12.18.22
Ep 14 | 12.18.22

Sometimes it's scripted and others, it's a target of opportunity.



John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) No, there's no confusion. I had a cup of coffee, I had two $100 bills, and now I have one. 

Dave Bittner: Hello, everyone, and welcome to a special edition of the "Hacking Humans" podcast, an occasional series we call "Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies." I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is my CyberWire colleague Rick Howard. Hello, Rick. 

Rick Howard: Hey, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: On this show, Rick and I look at some of our favorite clips from cinema and television, clips which demonstrate some of the scams and schemes Joe Carrigan and I talk about on "Hacking Humans." And we are thrilled to be joined once again by Tracy Maleeff. She is a security researcher at the Krebs Stamos Group. And you may also know her on Twitter as @Infosecsherpa. Tracy, great to have you back. 

Tracy Maleeff: Thanks so much for having me back. I really enjoy this, and I love talking about the cross section of information security and movies. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: Welcome, Tracy. Glad to have you on. This is fantastic. 

Dave Bittner: All right. We've got some fun clips to share, so stay tuned. We'll be right back after this message from our show's sponsor. 

Dave Bittner: All right. Let's jump into our clips here. Rick, why don't you start things off for us? 

Rick Howard: Yeah, my clip this week comes from the 2004 movie "Criminal." And directed by Gregory Jacobs, best known for producing the Tom Cruise movie "Edge of Tomorrow." And he also did "Magic Mike" and "Ocean's Twelve," so he's got that going for him. It stars John C. Reilly, famous for being a perennial that-guy actor. But we all know him and love him in "Wreck-It Ralph" and "Kong: Skull Island," which I love, by the way, and... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: ..."Guardians of the Galaxy." I think "Kong" the movie... 

Dave Bittner: I think he's underrated. Like... 

Rick Howard: Oh, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: He's - I think because he plays so many oddball characters, people don't notice how good he is. 

Rick Howard: He really is. He was in "Chicago," the musical, and he did the tap number "Cellophane," which was just amazing, by the way. So, yeah, lots of versatility. And the other - his co-star is Diego Luna. He's famous for the Disney TV show going on right now called "Andor," and he was also in the "Star Wars" movie, "Rogue One." So in "Criminal," Reilly is a veteran low-end street con artist, and he has taken Luna, who is a beginner, under his wing as kind of an apprentice. And the two of them, as well as Reilly's sister, played by Maggie Gyllenhaal, try to swindle a currency collector by selling him a counterfeit copy of an extremely rare currency bill. But in this first part - OK? - we're just going to do a low-end con here. 

Rick Howard: So in this series of clips, Reilly is teaching Luna the ropes. So let me set the scene. They are both walking the streets of Beverly Hills. Reilly is dressed like a typical businessman - gray suit, matching gray tie, blue shirt, not too fancy, but distinguished. And Luna is in casual clothes, and they don't look like they go together at all, right? And so they walk across the street, stop outside a small curbside cafe, and this is where we'll start. So we'll roll the clip. 


John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) You ever been to Beverly Hills? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) No. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) It's a great place to work. All right, so go in here. Order a soy latte to go. 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) OK. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Pay with this. Then come find me. 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) All right. Cool. 

Rick Howard: All right, stop there, Dave. All right, so here's what's going on. Reilly hands Luna a handle - a hundred-dollar bill, but before he does, he tears off a small corner of it and keeps it. And that's important for the con that will happen later. So fast forward to later in the day, and Reilly and Luna are eating at that same cafe. They have a long conversation about family, and then it's time to play the second part of the con. So roll it, Dave. 


Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) Have a good one, buddy. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Drive safe. Excuse me, can I get my change, please? 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) What change, sir? 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) The change for the hundred. 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) What hundred? 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) I paid you 10 minutes ago with a hundred-dollar bill. 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) Sir, you didn't pay me. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Excuse me, Daniel, but maybe you've got too many tables or something, but... 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) Hey. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) ...Ten minutes ago, I asked you if you could break a hundred, and you said yes. 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) Sir, I believe you're making a mistake. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Look, we're past the sir stage. I need to see the manager. 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) Sir, there's no reason to get the manager involved. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) I don't want to talk to you anymore. You understand what I'm saying? I want to talk to the manager so I can get my change and leave. 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) OK. You didn't pay, so don't shout. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) I don't want to shout, but I'm late. Now, I want to see the manager. Go get your boss. Don't be stupid. 

Nick Anavio: (As Cafe Manager) Excuse me, is there a problem here? 

Brandon Keener: (As Daniel) Yes. This gentleman says that he paid. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) No, no, no. I did pay you. 

Nick Anavio: (As Cafe Manager) There seems to be some sort of confusion here. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) No, there's no confusion. I had a cup of coffee. I had two hundred-dollar bills, and now I have one. Oh, here - the corner is missing, so the bill I paid with must be missing the corner. Can you check the register and see if there's a hundred-dollar bill with the corner missing, please? 

Nick Anavio: (As Cafe Manager) Yes, could you come with me, please? 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) I'm not going anywhere. Get my change, please. I have to get out of here. 

Rick Howard: All right. Stop it there, Dave. So I hope it's obvious, what's going on here, right? Right after this, there's a quick scene change, and Reilly and Luna are walking down the street. Reilly pays Luna his share of the con. They just walked away with a hundred dollars. So earlier, remember, Luna paid for some coffee with Reilly's torn corner hundred-dollar bill. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Rick Howard: Later, when he was raising the tension in the cafe, Reilly told the manager that he paid the lunch bill with that torn collar hundred-dollar bill, and asked the manager to verify it by looking in the cash register. That is brilliant, right? 

Dave Bittner: So the manager goes to the cash register and that - and the hundred-dollar bill is in there... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...As described. 

Rick Howard: Exactly, right? So... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...Reilly walks away with a clean hundred dollars, and probably the manager paid for the lunch, too - I'm not sure; that's not in the movie, but I'm guessing that's what happened, right? And as they're walking away, then Reilly teaches Luna why the con worked. And that's why I like this clip 'cause he explains what he actually did. So roll this last part, Dave. 


Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) I knew that trick. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Oh, yeah? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) Yeah. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Do you ever try it? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) No. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) Why not? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) It's too loud. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) What? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) You know, you have to make a whole scene. 

John C Reilly: (As Richard Gaddis) That's the point. They're not interested in making a scene. That's the key, OK? The more offended you are, the less suspicious you look. You know, if things get sticky, you blame everybody else. Have you been paying attention? 

Diego Luna: (As Rodrigo) Yeah. I just think it's too emotional, that's all. 

Rick Howard: That's it. So what do you guys think? Is that the con of the lifetime, there? 

Tracy Maleeff: Oh, that is up there, yeah, with the three-card Monte display I saw in San Francisco once, where we saw who the plants were ahead of time. 

Rick Howard: Oh, really? 

Dave Bittner: Oh, wow. 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah. I don't know if I - I know I told this story on some podcast, but, yeah, my husband and I decided to sit - we couldn't find anywhere to sit near Fisherman's Wharf, so we found this trolley that was out of commission. And we were sitting there, and we saw some other people on the trolley. And long story short, when we got up and started walking again, we saw them all together. One was doing the three-card Monte, and we could tell that the other two were there. But the look that we got from them when we realized that we had clocked them, it was one of those - my husband, like, grabbed my arm tighter and he was like, just keep walking, like, don't, like - don't look back. Don't look at them. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Tracy Maleeff: Keep walking 'cause yeah, it was - yeah, it was kind of scary 'cause, yeah, it was like, oh, like, we totally caught on. 

Dave Bittner: Like they know you know. 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, so. 

Dave Bittner: And you know they know you know. 

Tracy Maleeff: So just... 

Rick Howard: Well, for... 

Tracy Maleeff: ...Like that, yeah. This was well orchestrated because they were talking ahead of time in the trolley. Like, we couldn't hear what they were saying but they clearly, like, were organizing something. So, yeah, so this clip reminded me of that a lot, of - yeah, like, you know, there is a script. There is a routine. There's something to do. There's - you know, he - the back - the John C. Reilly character, yeah, went in with an agenda, with - you know, with a checklist of, you know, when to raise the voice, when to ask for the manager, what - you know, the whole we're beyond sir at this point. Like, yeah, that sounded like someone who was genuinely cheesed off about this. 

Rick Howard: What I like... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: ...About this is it shows the small stakes, OK? It's small time. He probably - you know, he's a professional veteran con man, so he probably does five or six of these things a day, just walking around different parts of the city and that's how he makes his living. I just found that fascinating that that would be a way to make your way in the world, right? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. It's interesting to me, too, that - how much he's relying on everyone else's emotional response... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...Just by turning up the heat and turning it up and turning it up. And, you know, when the manager comes, he doesn't let the heat go down. And so... 

Rick Howard: No. 

Dave Bittner: ...You know, the manager - at that point, the manager's job is to de-escalate... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...So that it doesn't ruin it for everyone else at the restaurant, and so... 

Rick Howard: Yeah, it... 

Dave Bittner: What... 

Rick Howard: And I... 

Dave Bittner: For what price? 

Rick Howard: ...Think it was telling - yeah, you're right. And I think it was telling that, you know, when they were walking away, he says - and this is sort of how he manages his life in the movie, too, when you watch the whole thing. Whenever there's a crisis, he blames everybody else and gets out of there, OK? That's sort of his go-to move, right? So he does it professionally and personally. 

Dave Bittner: Interesting. 

Tracy Maleeff: And I do want to admit that I don't know what year this - I'm not familiar with this movie. I don't know what year it is, but let's say... 

Rick Howard: 2004. 

Tracy Maleeff: 2004, OK. So probably even then, though, too, if this was something, if - a white male character has to do that, basically. 

Rick Howard: Right. 

Tracy Maleeff: I was going to say that, yeah, I feel like, you know, a person of color wouldn't be able to do that 'cause the first reaction would likely be to call the cops versus trying to negotiate. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. 

Rick Howard: Oh, I would call that - let's flip it. Let's put Luna in the business suit. I think he might even have more success 'cause he could be so affronted that they would accuse a non-white guy of trying to do something shady - right? - that I think that would cause even more tension, right? So... 

Dave Bittner: You think a skilled con person... 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...Could flip that on its head. 

Tracy Maleeff: But only if they worked it as a team. I don't think an individual person of color could be the primary character in the con. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: But you're right, Rick. I think that if there was a team that could play off each other, then, yeah, absolutely that would work. But I think if... 

Rick Howard: He would have to be dressed to the nines. He would have to be impeccable - all right? - to pull that off I think. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, it's - so it's - but I just wanted to throw that in as, you know, these things are complicated and also, you know, very much depend on who the actors are, the - you know, the threat actors... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Tracy Maleeff: ...Of who could get away with it and who can't. 

Dave Bittner: No, it's a fascinating clip. 

Rick Howard: It seems like a simple con - go ahead, Dave. Go ahead. 

Dave Bittner: You know, it's a fascinating clip. But I wonder also, like, you could probably get away with this once at each restaurant, right? 

Rick Howard: Right. 

Dave Bittner: So... 

Tracy Maleeff: Oh, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...Or, like, this scam could only be pulled once at each restaurant. So if he's making his way around the city and if he's in New York or a big city, then there's plenty of restaurants to do this in. But you - I could imagine him being caught by someone saying, yeah, someone else - sorry, buddy. Someone - you know, someone else has done this before, so... 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah. And waitstaff, you know, move around a lot. So the other thing would be, you know, even in a place like New York City, I mean, there's also a chance that you could run into the same waiter at a different restaurant, you know, six months later. And - you know, and be - yeah. 

Rick Howard: But it seems so obvious that - you know, the clipped corner of the hundred-dollar bill. But since it was done earlier in the day - OK? - and then they come back much later - like, hours later - that's tough - we know because that's - we saw it happen in the movie, right? But that's tough to explain in the heat of the moment when all that tension is riding. And you're right, Dave. That manager's job is to make it go away so none of the other patrons feel bad about what they're doing. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. And that's a big part of why it works, I guess, right? 

Rick Howard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: All right. Well, good stuff. It's a really interesting example there. Tracy, let's move on to your clip. What do you have for us this time? 

Tracy Maleeff: Sure. I have a clip from "The Talented Mr. Ripley..." 

Rick Howard: A good one. 

Tracy Maleeff: ...Which - yeah, which is a - I'm not sure what year it was. 

Dave Bittner: I think it's 1999. 

Tracy Maleeff: '99, yes. '99 film. But - and I actually just learned this, looking into the movie again - it's actually based on a novel that was written in 1955 by Patricia Highsmith. And there was actually a series of a couple books - five or six books - with Tom Ripley as the character. So I thought that was interesting. So what I was explaining to the gentlemen before we were on air is this is a very visual movie. So I was having a hard time finding a good clip of just talking that also wasn't too long (laughter). Because that was the other thing, too, is I found some great clips, but there was a lot of, like, you know, non-vocal action in between. I was like, alright, this is going to be, like, a 20-minute clip. 

Tracy Maleeff: So let me set up this clip that I did want to bring is - this is the very beginning of the film. This is within, like, the first five minutes of the film. And the reason why I like this is the - Tom Ripley, the perpetrator, has a decision to make very quickly - whether or not to go all in or to retreat. And once you play the clip, you'll hear what I mean. And I just think that's - I mean, that's the whole movie right there is deciding, like, which way is this going to go? And the scene is he's playing piano on a rooftop in Manhattan. It's a lovely scene. Does take place, I guess, post-war, so I guess early '50s. And he is wearing a jacket with a Princeton emblem on it, and that's kind of what starts off this whole interaction. 

Dave Bittner: All right. I'll play the clip. 


James Rebhorn: (As Herbert Greenleaf) Marvelous. Most enjoyed it. Herbert Greenleaf. My wife, Emily. 

Matt Damon: (As Tom Ripley) Thank you. Tom Ripley. 

Lisa Eichhorn: (As Emily Greenleaf) How do you do? 

James Rebhorn: (As Herbert Greenleaf) You were at Princeton. It's likely you'll know our son, Dick. Dickie Greenleaf. 

Lisa Eichhorn: (As Emily Greenleaf) I couldn't help noticing your jacket. 

James Rebhorn: (As Herbert Greenleaf) Yes. 

Lisa Eichhorn: (As Emily Greenleaf) Class of '56. 

Rick Howard: Was that the moment, Tracy, he decides... 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, so... 


Tracy Maleeff: So if you listen carefully, the music will be your cue for that. And when you're watching it, you can see the wheels in his brain... 


Matt Damon: (As Tom Ripley) How is Dickie? 

Tracy Maleeff: ...Turning of which way to lean into this. And - you know, and then we find out later that he borrowed the jacket from someone. He was filling in for the partner of the singer that we heard a little bit when the clip started. So what I like about this film, but I'm - after digging into it a little bit, I realize it doesn't really do a lot of background setting. So apparently, this Tom Ripley, that was just kind of his MO, which he sort of admits to towards the very end of the film. But he was always kind of pulling these small-time scams and things like that. 

Tracy Maleeff: That was just kind of his life because he ran from playing piano and, you know, getting cash for the gig, to - next thing you know, we see him at a very fancy restaurant being a butler, waiter, you know, type of person. So, yeah, so it's been made very clearly that the jacket is not his. But, you know, in that moment, he had to make a decision, right? Was he going to, you know, admit that he didn't have - you know, that the jacket wasn't his? Was he going to - you know, to relate that? So that's why I thought it was really interesting is - because, you know, there was definitely a decision made there. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. And you can see it on his face. And as you say, there's, like - there's multiple ways he could have gone. He could have said - he could have just said, oh, I went to Princeton, but I don't know your son. But he went even farther than that by saying... 

Rick Howard: He goes all in. Yeah, all in. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. He's goes in with... 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Dave Bittner: ...How's Dickie? Right. 

Tracy Maleeff: He goes all in. So, yeah, I mean, this film - so I - the reason why I feel like this is a good, you know, analogy for social engineering and information security and where the infosec part comes in is, you know, Tom Ripley's an APT. He is an advanced persistent threat because he - this is - he's playing the long game for this, you know? He... 

Rick Howard: Oh, 'cause he doesn't have a specific target at that moment. He is... 

Tracy Maleeff: Correct, yes. 

Rick Howard: He is - this is his initial entry into the space 'cause Ripley is not rich - right? - he is a... 

Tracy Maleeff: No, no, he's - yeah. 

Rick Howard: He's a poor guy, and this is a very rich crowd. So this is his breaking into the initial host. This is a zero-day host right here. 


Tracy Maleeff: Exactly. Exactly. And it's not until Mr. Greenleaf, who - you know, who introduced himself - who started all this off - at the party said to, you know, meet me at my construction site and, you know, I have a job for you. And that's when, you know, it turns out, oh, well, I'm going to pay you a thousand dollars in early 1950s money, you know, to go to Italy to - you know, to retrieve my ne'er-do-well son. And, you know, and it just keep - but he keeps playing the long game 'cause then - spoiler alert - once he's in Italy, then he starts, you know, writing back, oh, I need more money. Oh, this is going to cost some more. So that's why not only is this social engineering, but this is very much how an APT would be on a network is, you know, it's going to kind of - maybe a malicious actor accidentally falls into, you know, a network like this did. I mean, he - this opportunity literally landed in Tom Ripley's lap. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: And like you said, it's a target of opportunity, right? He didn't go there looking - I need to get in here so I can steal this thing or to do this other thing. It's - no, let me get established, and I will live off the land, basically. I really like that idea. 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, yeah. It's just - it speaks volumes to me about how, you know, we talk about script kiddies doing things and stuff like that. This was just - this fell into his lap and then he made something malicious out of it. So that's very much an analogy for what's happening and how long it lasted - you know how long he was able to pull this off. And then at some point, he even actually had Dickie Greenleaf assisting him. So, again, that could talk to insider threat, you know, within an enterprise network or - you know, and Dickie Greenleaf thought that they were just, you know, scamming his father. But, you know, Tom Ripley had all these more grandiose plans 'cause there's a really good quote at the end of the film by Tom Ripley. He said, I always thought it would be better to be a fake somebody than a real nobody. 

Rick Howard: Wow. 

Dave Bittner: Wow (laughter). 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah. 

Rick Howard: Wow. 

Tracy Maleeff: And... 

Rick Howard: Wow (laughter). 

Tracy Maleeff: ...That isn't - if that isn't, you know, threat actors, what is? 

Rick Howard: That's dark. That is dark right there. Oh, man. 

Dave Bittner: It struck me, too. You know, I was watching a little bit of the clip around this clip that you provided for us. And when Mr. Greenleaf is heading to his car with his wife after the performance, he says, well, what an exceptional young man, you know? And so in a way, to me, it kind of points to something you pointed out earlier, which is that part of him being successful in this was who he was. You know, he was a clean-cut, good-looking young white man. Had he been something different - particularly you think back to the 1950s. You know, if he'd have been a young Black man or a young woman or whatever, he wouldn't have had the opportunity. The other people wouldn't have made so many assumptions about him without him having to explain himself, merely by the fact that he was wearing a Princeton jacket. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: Exactly. Yeah, you're right. If it was a young Black man, it could have easily been like, where did you get that jacket? Yeah. 

Rick Howard: It would have gone the other way (laughter). 

Tracy Maleeff: Yeah, exactly. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: And I also feel, though, this movie, this type of social engineering is very much of its time. Like, you know, today with technology, we'd be able to figure out very - like, it would be a five-minute movie, right? You know, or... 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right, right (laughter). 

Tracy Maleeff: You know, so I think if you watch this for the first time and you're - you know, you're very skeptical of it, you really need to put your mindset into what was technology like at the time, which, you know, there wasn't that much of it, and what were social, you know, mores at the time? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: It's any connection to connect - oh, Princeton. Oh, we're part of the same Princeton tribe as well. We want to show off. You know... 

Rick Howard: Well, I know what you're saying, though, Tracy, 'cause we were - my family and I were talking about how most of the horror movies you watch these days would be solved if you just got to use your cellphone. 


Tracy Maleeff: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right. 

Tracy Maleeff: Exactly. Well, there's this one episode of "Seinfeld" that's classic, but it would be one minute long today. 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: It was when they were going back and forth between JFK and LaGuardia. And I was like, oh, like, yeah. This would be, like, a one-minute episode, if that, you know? 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Tracy Maleeff: So, yeah. So sometimes when you watch these things, you have to really think about, like, OK, well, without phones, without all this - and sometimes you wonder, like, well, how can people be so easily fooled? Well, they see what they want to see, you know? 

Rick Howard: Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: This guy was all in angst that his son is just being a playboy in Italy. And now he's - oh, I can trust him. He's a Princeton man. So I think this just speaks a lot to a lot of infosec things we talk about - you know, about assuming things good or bad. You know, like the time when I was a SOC analyst, and I accidentally blocked all the Google IPs for the offices in a certain country because I thought they were hostile. 

Rick Howard: Sure, as you do. As you do. 

Tracy Maleeff: And - as you do. 


Tracy Maleeff: And about 10, 15 minutes after I did it, my manager very just calmly turned to me, and he said, Tracy, any reason why the offices in blank country can't get to their Gmail right now? I'm like, yup. 


Tracy Maleeff: Yup, there's a reason. 

Dave Bittner: Oh, man. I was going to ask you how long it took them to notice. 

Tracy Maleeff: Fortunately, it was only, like, 10 to 15 minutes. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Tracy Maleeff: And that's when I learned a very valuable lesson about - you know, don't make assumptions about indicators of compromise. You know, yeah, so - (laughter). 

Dave Bittner: Wow. Yeah. 

Tracy Maleeff: So people - like I said, people believe what they want to believe. And the Greenleafs wanted to believe that Tom Ripley, you know, was an upstanding, fine individual from Princeton and, therefore, entrusted him with this journey to, you know, go retrieve their son. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. All right. Well, great clips this time, everybody. Thanks so much. And, Tracy, thank you for joining us. 

Rick Howard: Yeah, thanks Tracy. 

Dave Bittner: It's always a pleasure to have you here. If folks want to follow you online, what's the best way for them to do that? 

Tracy Maleeff: I am available on Twitter @InfoSecSherpa. And if you look at my profile, I have a Linktree there where you can see a lot of my talks or interviews I've given or other podcasts that I've been on. So I will add this one to my Linktree when it's ready. 

Rick Howard: And by the way, @InfoSecSherpa is the greatest name - hacker name of all time, OK? So... 


Tracy Maleeff: Thank you. Your guide up a mountain of information. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's great. All right. Well, again, Tracy Maleeff - she is a security researcher at the Krebs Stamos Group. And of course, Rick Howard is my colleague here at the CyberWire. Everybody, thanks so much for joining us this time around. This was great fun. We'll have to do it again. 

Rick Howard: You bet. 

Tracy Maleeff: Thanks. 

Dave Bittner: The "Hacking Humans" podcast is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies. Our senior producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our executive editor is Peter Kilpe. I'm Dave Bittner. 

Rick Howard: And I'm Rick Howard. 

Tracy Maleeff: And I'm Tracy Maleeff. 

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.