Phishing in the tariff storm.
[ Music ]
David Bittner: Hello, everyone, and welcome to N2K CyberWire's "Hacking Humans" Podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, the phishing schemes, and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is Joe Carrigan. Hey, Joe.
Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave.
David Bittner: Our usual co-host, Maria Varmazis, is at a space conference this week, so she will not be joining us this week, but we'll look forward to having her back next time. All right, Joe, a couple quick bits of follow-up here before we dig into our story. Quickly, I wanted to just touch on, as I think some people know, the passing of my father.
Joe Carrigan: Yep.
David Bittner: My dad was, in a roundabout way, kind of a character on this show, because I would often talk about my trials and tribulations of being, as I called it, unlimited lifetime tech support for my elderly father, so a couple weeks ago, as we were recording this, my father passed away and did so very peacefully and surrounded by loved ones and on his own terms. So as far as passing goes, it was just about everything you could have possibly asked for or wished for, but of course, I miss my dad, and just going through all the usual journey of grief that you go through when you lose a loved one as important as my father was to me, so I appreciate everyone's kind words, and it's just a little different. I may have told you this, Joe, on the passing of my mother about three years ago. One of the realizations I had was that I have never known a world without them in it.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: Right, and so, you just don't know what the world is going to be when someone that important to you is no longer here.
Joe Carrigan: Yep. It's kind of scary, but the thing I've always heard is that it'll never be the same, but it will get better.
David Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's been my experience after my mom's passing, and, you know, just try to be thankful for all the good times we had. My father was a good man and a good dad, and so we're all very thankful for that. All right, well, moving on to other things, Joe, you've got another bit of a follow-up here for us.
Joe Carrigan: I said something profoundly stupid last week.
David Bittner: [laughing] Okay. I'm sorry. I missed that.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I said that I thought lead was more-dense than gold. It isn't.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: I thought this because lead has a greater atomic mass than gold does. So, in other words, one atom of lead is heavier than one atom of gold, but if you pick up a bunch of atoms and put them together, apparently, they are significantly lighter than gold.
David Bittner: Oh.
Joe Carrigan: So, Maria and I were theorizing about how would you make a fake gold bar by coating something with gold.
David Bittner: Okay. Right.
Joe Carrigan: However, I did find out that tungsten has almost an identical density to gold, and I don't know how to say this, rhenium?
David Bittner: Rhenium?
Joe Carrigan: Rhenium. Yeah, rhenium has a slightly higher density than gold, so you could mix a rhenium and tungsten alloy to have the exact same density as gold, and they do mix these things together. You just need to know how much of which to put together, and then you could put that right in the middle of a bar of gold, and the old Archimedes test of weighing the gold and putting it into a glass of water to see how much it displaces would tell you that it's gold.
David Bittner: That's interesting.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, so I still think you can make a fake gold bar. The difference is that tungsten and, I think, rhenium are both very hard metals, so they're not soft like gold is. So if you tested it that way, like tried to bend it, you would not be able to bend a tungsten bar.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: Right. You know, when I, back in, many years ago, when I was a Steadicam operator, some other Steadicam colleagues, they used tungsten carbide as a ballast weight. So there are times in the -- if Steadicams are, you know, it's the camera stabilization thing. I guess the most well-known thing is Rocky running up the stairs in Philadelphia, that a Steadicam shot it makes the camera look like it's floating.
David Bittner: Yes.
Joe Carrigan: I used to do that. I have never seen -- actually, I've never seen Rocky.
David Bittner: Really?
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, really.
David Bittner: Joe.
Joe Carrigan: Hey --
David Bittner: You've got some homework, man.
Joe Carrigan: I only recently watched The Godfather, which, by the way, is a great movie. It shouldn't be missed.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: But I saw Apocalypse Now when I was a kid, which is also a great movie, shouldn't be missed.
David Bittner: Sure.
Joe Carrigan: Rocky, I was just never interested in the movie. It just never caught my eye. Not that I don't like Sylvester Stallone or respect his work. I mean, he wrote that movie, directed it, and starred in it. That's phenomenal, and it was a huge success, but the thing I -- when you say Steadicam, the very first thing I remember is something of a -- some documentary where I was watching somebody explaining the Steadicam, and it's a woman running through a field of flowers with the Steadicam operator chasing her. And they show you, you know, what it looks like as the Steadicam operator is chasing the woman through the field of flowers, and you're like, there's no way this looks good. And then they show you the footage from the Steadicam, and I'm like, man, that's beautiful.
David Bittner: Right. Right. Right.
Joe Carrigan: So, it's all just physics and weights and counterbalances and so on and so forth, so in that mechanical contraption, sometimes you had things that were counterbalances that you wanted to use as ballast weight. So you wanted to have things that were very dense so that they didn't take up a lot of space, but they had a lot of mass, and evidently tungsten carbide was a popular one, I think because it was relatively cheap, more available than something, than say, depleted uranium.
David Bittner: Yes.
Joe Carrigan: I will say this, tungsten. I looked up the prices of tungsten and rhenium today. Tungsten is like $50 for a kilogram of it, and rhenium is like $2,000 for a kilogram of it.
David Bittner: Oh, wow.
Joe Carrigan: So, it would be cheap for you to make fake gold with this. I mean, in terms of, I mean, yes, rhenium is kind of expensive as far as metals go. It's not as cheap as tungsten or copper or aluminum, but it is cheap compared to gold, and you're only going to need a little bit of it.
David Bittner: Got a little side hustle there.
Joe Carrigan: Right So following on to this, our question that we never really got an answer to, a lot of people wrote in -- a lot of people wrote in -- and told us that we can get gold bars at Costco. Are you a Costco member, Dave?
David Bittner: I think so.
Joe Carrigan: You think so?
David Bittner: Well, yeah, I think I am. My wife generally handles that kind of shopping, and I don't mean that in any sort of misogynistic kind of way. She prefers to handle that kind of shopping, and so she handles -- I know we have a Costco membership, and I believe, a BJ's warehouse membership, as well. But I think sometimes she switches, and we don't always have both of them simultaneously.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: Actually, I'm going to back up because one of them sells gas.
Joe Carrigan: Never buy gas at the Costco.
David Bittner: No?
Joe Carrigan: No. The gas lines always look like Jimmy Carter is President again. It's just -- it's awful.
David Bittner: You know, I think my teenage son buys his gas there because he has more time than money.
Joe Carrigan: Right. You know, there's a Costco by us where they have a gas pump, and there's always a line at least three cars deep at every pump, and just down the street there's a Royal Farms, which is like a Maryland convenience store, that sells gas for maybe 10 cents more a gallon. How many gallons are you going to buy, 10, 15? Is it worth $1.50 of your time, $1.50 to not sit in that line?
David Bittner: I think it is. Right. So I go and just buy the 10 cent more expensive gas.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, and then you're on your way.
David Bittner: Yeah, and then I'm on my way. Not waiting in line.
Joe Carrigan: Right. All right, well, thanks to everybody for writing in to us. We do appreciate it. [ Music ]
David Bittner: Let's move on to our stories here, and I am going to kick things off for us. Joe, you and me and Maria, we talk about time and time again, about how the scammers follow the news.
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: Right?
Joe Carrigan: They are very news savvy.
David Bittner: They are very news savvy, and what has been in the news, maybe dominating the news, since we're recording this more than anything else, are President Trump's tariffs.
Joe Carrigan: Yes. There is no avoiding. Driving everybody crazy.
David Bittner: That's right.
Joe Carrigan: I lost a bunch of money last week. I got some of it back yesterday.
David Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. So -- and the uncertainty is causing a lot of people a lot of anxiety.
Joe Carrigan: Yep.
David Bittner: And so if you have an anxious electorate, an anxious society, that primes people to being susceptible to cybercrime. So, there's a company called Precrime Labs, which sounds something out of the Spielberg movie. It's like, what was that movie? Was it Minority Report?
Joe Carrigan: Minority Report. With the precogs?
David Bittner: Right. The precogs. Yeah. So, there's an organization called Precrime Labs, and they're a security research organization. They have uncovered over 300 suspicious websites registered so far just this year, and they are looking to take advantage of these tariff issues. So there's one that is a phishing site that's posing as a legit U.S. Customs and Tariffs page. So you get an email or a message saying that you owe payments due to the new tariff charges, and of course, none of us are experts on how tariffs work yet.
Joe Carrigan: I do know this. I do know this. That unless you're importing or exporting something, you don't pay a tariff.
David Bittner: Right, but you can see how there could be confusion.
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: And people may think that, I don't know, is there -- and if someone sends you a strongly worded letter or email or text message.
Joe Carrigan: With threats of arrest, I'm sure.
David Bittner: Oh, yeah, or even just, you know, you're not going to get your shipment, or you're not going to get your, who knows, your Social Security payment. I mean, things that are even nonsensical are enough, especially when people are in this sort of heightened state of anxiety and agitation. And if you go to this page, it is a fake site, and it tricks people into either handing over their money or their sensitive financial information, and it's hosted through one of those sites that has a lot of malicious activity, the bulletproof hosting kinds of places. There are a bunch of domains that have been registered that are things like tariffwine.com or tariffhealth.com. So basically just appending or prepending the word tariff onto the regular everyday things that we do and use in our lives.
Joe Carrigan: Now, Dave, are you a wine guy?
David Bittner: I would not -- no. I would not categorize myself as a wine guy. I do enjoy an occasional glass of wine, but I do not know a lot about wine. I would not consider myself to be a wine snob. Some folks, I have friends who are very, very, I guess, self-identifying as wine aficionados, and I am not that.
Joe Carrigan: No, nor am I.
David Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: But I did recently, just recently, cease a wine membership for a winery in Texas that didn't ship to Maryland, so I have to go down there and pick up my wine. So it's a little bit --
David Bittner: Seems like an expensive --
Joe Carrigan: It's impractical, Dave. So, I canceled it.
David Bittner: Sounded like a good idea at the time?
Joe Carrigan: It really did. They gave me a flight of wine. They said, hey, would you like to join our club? I'm like, sure.
David Bittner: That sounds great.
Joe Carrigan: So for like three years, I was a member of the wine club. We have friends down there, so I'd go down there and pick it up and come back, but it was all domestic wine, and my kids would, of course, mock me incessantly about that, but they have a wine club membership to a local winery here in Maryland. We buy a lot of our wine as domestic wine. We don't really drink a lot of imported wine, but like you, I have known some people who are wine snobs, and they love imported wine.
David Bittner: Sure.
Joe Carrigan: So I can see where this would target them. Oh, that bottle of French wine I bought, apparently, I now owe a retroactive tariff on it that I should have -- and that's not how tariffs work, at least I don't think. You can't have -- tariffs are applied at the moment of import and export, right?
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: They're not -- like if there's a bunch of Japanese cars here right now that have already been imported into the United States, and these are not built in the United States, like let's say Toyota has imported some, those are not going to be subject to tariffs.
David Bittner: No. I mean, there was a story just a few days ago about, you know, before this last round of threatened tariffs were scheduled to go into effect, that Apple was basically loading up cargo planes with iPhones --
Joe Carrigan: Right, to ship them in.
David Bittner: -- to onshore them. Yeah, to get them here before the tariffs kicked into place, so I think you're right there.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, but when there's all this news, and there's all this chatter around there, and you get a threatening email saying, hey, we noticed that you bought something, would it be unreasonable to assume that people would be like, well, I guess the government knows everything I buy, and then they just respond to it, or, I mean --
David Bittner: Yeah. I mean, someone says, hey, you bought such and such, and you failed to pay your tariff.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: You know, and unless you pay the tariff, somebody is going to come and knock on your door and arrest you.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: And, you know, I mean, look, there are news stories right now about people knocking on people's doors and arresting them.
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: So it's not crazy for that to be in people's minds.
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: Right? So it's all sort of intertwined, and to that point, this story talks about there are some troll sites out there that are really just there to stir the pot, to amplify the outrage and spread hate, mocking tariff policies or inflaming public sentiment, those sorts of things as well. And, you know, that's not helpful.
Joe Carrigan: No.
David Bittner: So the experts are saying that as this tariff situation continues to evolve, and at the moment, it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere, nor is it seem like it's settling into any sort of steady state, right?
Joe Carrigan: No.
David Bittner: That these scams are going to play off of it. So they mentioned that there have been some fake consultancies offering tariff guidance, crypto coins.
Joe Carrigan: That's a good way to scam people out of money on this.
David Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. So as always, pause before you click. That clever-looking site could be a well-crafted trap.
Joe Carrigan: They're so easy to stand up, you know. A good-looking site is pretty easy to stand up if you know what you're doing.
David Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: I don't know what I'm doing. All my sites look like crap.
David Bittner: Well, but also, I mean, so, I think government websites are notoriously not good-looking.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: And so they're even easier to copy because there's no standard for excellence, you know?
Joe Carrigan: Yeah. That's a -- I think that's a government-wide problem.
David Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So just beware. Anything tariff-related, if somebody's asking you for additional money and it has anything to do with tariffs, just pause a beat and just check to make sure.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, you don't pay tariffs.
David Bittner: That's right. That's right. All right. That is my story this week. Joe, what do you have for us?
Joe Carrigan: I should say, you don't directly pay tariffs. You are going to pay the tariff. No mistake, but you don't write a check to some -- you'll buy something more expensive. That's how you pay it.
David Bittner: That's right. That's right.
Joe Carrigan: All right. So I have some good news. This one comes from Stephanie Price at Fox News, and this is coming out of Oklahoma, where it says, "An Oklahoma woman has been charged with laundering $1.5 million from elderly women in online romance scams." This woman is named Christine Joan Echohawk. She's 53 years old, and she is alleged to have laundered money from out-of-state victims from September of last year until December of last year. The officials said the victims were between the ages of 64 and 79. They even tell the horror story of one of the victims who sold her house to send money to these romance scammers, which is awful, I think. Apparently, she was not involved in the actual scamming, but she was laundering the money for them.
David Bittner: I see.
Joe Carrigan: So she has been arrested. She came to law enforcement's attention, and they said -- they started asking her questions about it, and she stopped laundering money for a little while and then went back to it. If she is convicted, she is looking at anywhere between 24 and 62 years in prison and up to a quarter-million dollars in fines.
David Bittner: Wow.
Joe Carrigan: There's a number in this article that says if you -- to report fraud to Consumer Protection Unit for Oklahoma, but I don't know why that number is in there because these victims were not from Oklahoma.
David Bittner: Oh, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: She was laundering money with -- one of the things she was doing was cryptocurrency, which is a pretty good way to launder money. You send -- you know, basically what happens is you get some cash. You put that cash into the banking system, and then you buy cryptocurrency with it, and then you send that cryptocurrency away. That really helps the people that you're laundering the money for, but it does leave a pretty good trail for you. I get the impression that this woman was just not good at money laundering. One of the things that stood out and actually raised attention was one of the banks that she had an account with paused a payment in January of $120,000 from one of the victims.
David Bittner: Oh.
Joe Carrigan: So she may have been getting money directly from the victims deposited into her account, which she was then responsible for laundering.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: That's not a good way to launder money because that's all traceable. You know, you need something untraceable to launder money.
David Bittner: Yeah, my understanding just from having side conversations with some of the FBI folks that I've chatted with over on CyberWire is that the tools that they have available to them for tracking things even through cryptocurrencies and mixers and all that kind of thing have come a long way.
Joe Carrigan: They've gotten a lot better.
David Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, now they're able to trace it across different blockchains so they can make the association like this person sold X number of dollars in Bitcoin, and look, somebody took possession of almost exactly that amount of Ethereum.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: Let's assume that's the same transaction and those are two ends of the transaction, and let's go follow that Ethereum and see where it goes.
David Bittner: Yeah, interesting.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, because those are all open blockchains. There's no privacy preservation on them, and a lot of crypto exchanges are not dealing with the privacy-preserving cryptocurrency like Monero. They're not dealing with it anymore because of exactly the concern of money laundering.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: So my next story is actually from Yahoo News, and it looks like it's sponsored by Moneywise. I don't know how Yahoo News works, Dave, do you? Is it an aggregator? Is it actual reporting?
David Bittner: I have no idea.
Joe Carrigan: The author is Daniel Antosz, and this story is about a new jackpotting scam, which is an ATM hack. So are you familiar with the idea of ATM jackpotting?
David Bittner: Is that where I use technical means to have the ATM spit out money?
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: Yes. I think Jack Rhysider had an episode of this on "Darknet Diaries" a while ago.
David Bittner: Oh, yeah. That sounds like -- yeah, that sounds right up his alley.
Joe Carrigan: Right, and one of the things they'll do is if you can get into an ATM and you can change the value on what they call the cassettes, which are the things that hold the bills, and you tell it that the $20 bill container contains $1 bills, and then you go in and you make a withdrawal from your account for $3 and you get $60 out, and then you just made $57 in free money. So how this is working is they're going in. They're picking out receipts, and that's what the camera shows. They're picking up receipts, and then they're doing something at the ATM and getting money out. Now the underlying way they're doing this, and they're on the phone when they're doing this. So they're coordinating with somebody remotely.
David Bittner: So this is a receipt from the ATM?
Joe Carrigan: From the ATM.
David Bittner: So in other words, you and I go to withdraw money. We get our receipt, and we just cast it aside or drop it on the floor.
Joe Carrigan: Right, throw it in the trash.
David Bittner: Okay, gotcha.
Joe Carrigan: They're picking some of those up out of the trash. They're taking pictures of them, and they're on the phone with somebody, and I think it looks like it's really timing sensitive. So apparently there's some kind of glitch in -- or I shouldn't say glitch. This is actually probably a vulnerability that needs to be patched, where there is a delay from when the money is dispensed to when the transaction is finalized. So the money comes out, somebody who has back-end access to the ATM cancels the transaction, but the money has already been dispensed. So no accounts are being impacted, nobody's losing money except the bank.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: And there is kind of an upside to this story, and that is that they've already arrested a few of these people, and seven people have been charged so far. Two were arrested in Harris County, and two more are in custody in Miami, and the suspected U.S.-side coordinator, Vitalii Moravel, is an alleged Ukrainian war refugee on a humanitarian visa, and he's also facing related charges in Georgia and Florida. So this is something that's going on. They think they're working with what the article describes as a big boss who might be back in either Ukraine or Russia.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: And that's the organization that's doing the hacking into the back-end of the ATM, and they're walking up, conducting some kind of transaction, and having the transaction canceled after the money is dispensed. That seems to be the way it's going.
David Bittner: So there's something on that receipt that they can then use to get -- when they're getting backdoor access to the machine somehow.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah. I think it might be an identifier for the machine.
David Bittner: Interesting. Wow.
Joe Carrigan: There might be some kind of identifier for the machine in the receipt.
David Bittner: And they just empty it of cash?
Joe Carrigan: They are emptying these things of cash. Yeah, they've gotten over a quarter million dollars out of these things.
David Bittner: Wow. Well, I guess the good news is they're just taking it from the machine, not from some poor innocent victim's account.
Joe Carrigan: Correct. Yeah.
David Bittner: Yeah, still.
Joe Carrigan: Still, yeah. It's still going to cost everybody in the long run.
David Bittner: Right, and if you're coming up to get your own money and the machine is empty, no cash for you.
Joe Carrigan: That's right. That's kind of a minor inconvenience, though.
David Bittner: Right. All right. Well, that's interesting. Well, we will have links to both of your stories here in the show notes, and of course, we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, you can email us. It's hackinghumans@n2k.com. We'll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsor. [ Music ] All right. We are back, and, Joe, it is time for our Catch of the Day. [ Soundbite of Reeling in Fishing Line ] [ Music ]
Joe Carrigan: Dave, our Catch of the Day comes from Montclair University.
David Bittner: In New Jersey.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah. It's a phishing file that they've discovered. Somebody said we've had stories like this before from universities where they were sending around warnings about somebody impersonating faculty.
David Bittner: Well, in Montclair, to their credit, they have a webpage where they aggregate phishing attempts that have come in to their staff and students.
Joe Carrigan: Yes.
David Bittner: So you can go and peruse them, and that's actually where I found this one. Someone pointed me to it that it's a nice little collection of -- and it's sort of they're adding to them day by day, real time. So --
Joe Carrigan: Excellent.
David Bittner: -- kind of neat. Joe, you have had a camper in your life.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: Right?
Joe Carrigan: I'm trying to sell it, Dave. For sale, 2019 Grand Design Reflection.
David Bittner: Yeah. Well, this is an email going out to faculty and staff at Montclair. The subject is "Opportunity to Own a Free 2014 Airstream Sport 16-foot Travel Trailer."
Joe Carrigan: Now see, that's a nice travel trailer.
David Bittner: That was my next question. That is a nice one? Airstreams in generally are pretty good, right?
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, Airstreams are built solid. They don't put slide outs on them, so you don't get the extra room, but they have a reputation for like lasting forever.
David Bittner: They're the big like aluminum, polished aluminum Twinkies.
Joe Carrigan: Polished aluminum Twinkies, right.
David Bittner: I always think of the Apollo program with Airstreams. Right. Yeah, because that's where they put them to quarantine them.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: After they got back from the moon. Yeah. All right. It goes, "Dear Faculty Staff, I hope this email finds you well. I'm writing to inform you that so-and-so, associate professor of Montclair State University, has expressed her willingness to donate her late father's 2014 Airstream Sport 16-foot travel trailer, 7,000 miles, sleeps four, has a color TV, radio, microwave, propane heater, electric AC heater unit. If you are interested [laughing] this Airstream Sport, please indicate your interest by sending an email to arrange inspection and delivery or pick up with a moving company. Please write" so-and-so "with your personal email and not with school email for a swift and fast response."
Joe Carrigan: Right, the off the platform. Notice they're trying to move you off platform right away.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: Right. Get you off of the school email.
David Bittner: Yeah. Where you might have -- might be protected from this.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: So this is -- I don't -- my daughter was thinking about buying a trailer, a travel trailer, at some point in time.
Joe Carrigan: Well, here's a free one.
David Bittner: Right. Here's a free one. She saw one on Facebook Marketplace and said, hey, I'm interested in this. And the woman's like, ah, yes, my husband passed away and now it's all shrink wrapped in and set up and she begins the whole process, and it's one -- we actually had that scam on this show.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: And when she showed this to me, she says, is this a scam? I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a scam. That's the same scam as, you know, we've been talking about that recently.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: So I don't know what the scam is here though. Maybe you -- oh, maybe you have to pay delivery fees.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah. I mean, I suspect so. It reminds me of the grand piano scams.
David Bittner: Right. Yes.
Joe Carrigan: Same sort of thing.
David Bittner: Similar.
Joe Carrigan: A free piano, you just have to pay to have it shipped.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: And of course there's no piano. There's no shipping. You pay and that's it.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: $200.
David Bittner: One thing that struck me here, Joe, that I don't know about trailers, right?
Joe Carrigan: Right. Maybe I can help.
David Bittner: Well, that's what I'm getting at. It says 7,000 miles.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
David Bittner: Do trailers have odometers?
Joe Carrigan: They do not.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: Like I can tell you about how many miles my trailer has been driven. It's around a thousand, but I can't give you an exact number.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: You know, I know where it's been.
David Bittner: Yeah. I mean, it was how many, let's say those trailers, it's not the years, it's the miles. This trailer has seen some bad campgrounds, right?
Joe Carrigan: So yeah, it's, you know, like mine was driven from where we got it, where we bought it, which is up in Thurmont, and it was driven down to the Eastern shore of Virginia and the Delmarva Peninsula, then up to Gettysburg, and now it's been driven back down to Carroll County, Maryland, where it is awaiting sale.
David Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: So yeah, we, it's -- trailer lifestyle is a great, you know, trailer camping is a great lifestyle if you're going to do it. You know, it's worth getting a trailer if you're going to be, you know, doing a lot of traveling, and you're going to be up at the trailer every weekend or up at the camper or whatever.
David Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: Last year, we didn't get to go once.
David Bittner: Oh.
Joe Carrigan: Which was a shame.
David Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: We didn't -- I never de-winterized it from the previous year. So it's just not fitting our lifestyle anymore.
David Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: So, I mean, you've got to make the decision, but it's --
David Bittner: You enjoyed it while you had it, right?
Joe Carrigan: I did. I did enjoy it. At the time -- the time we had at it was, had like on the Eastern shore and up in Gettysburg was pretty good.
David Bittner: Yeah. Very nice. So the 7,000 miles is a little bit of a tell that --
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: That's not a thing.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
David Bittner: How do you know how many miles it has on it?
Joe Carrigan: I mean, you could approximate it. Like I could say mine has about a thousand miles on it, but there is no odometer, no.
David Bittner: Okay. Interesting. All right. Well, that is our Catch of the Day, and of course, we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, please email us. It's hackinghumans@n2k.com. [ Music ] And that is Hacking Humans brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to hackinghumans@n2k.com. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our Executive Producer is Jennifer Eiben. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Tre Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.
Joe Carrigan: And I'm Joe Carrigan.
David Bittner: [imitating female voice] And Maria's not here. Thanks for listening. [ Music ]
