It's just too good to be true.

Dave Bittner: Hello, everyone, and welcome to N2K CyberWire's "Hacking Humans" podcast where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes, and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner and joining me is Joe Carrigan. Hey, Joe.

Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave.

 

Dave Bittner: And our N2K colleague and host of the "T-Minus Space Daily" podcast, Maria Varmazis. Hi, Maria.

 

Maria Varmazis: Hi, Dave. And hi, Joe.

 

Dave Bittner: We've got some good stories to share this week, but first we've got some follow up. What do we have here this week, friend?

 

Joe Carrigan: So I would like to make an announcement. SANS Institute has honored Dave with the difference maker award in the media creator category. Yeah. So congratulations, Dave.

 

Maria Varmazis: Well done, Dave. Congratulations.

 

Joe Carrigan: I saw your post on Linked In. It said "I have the best job in the world because I get to talk with smart interesting people." And Joe. "About important work and share." I added the -- he didn't put that on Linked In.

 

Maria Varmazis: It was -- it was implied heavily.

 

Joe Carrigan: Share what I've learned along the way. I'm also the most visible part of an amazing team whose work makes all this possible. So yes. There's a lot of people behind the scenes.

 

Dave Bittner: That's true.

 

Joe Carrigan: Sure these guys -- these guys have done a good job of making I know me not sound like an idiot.

 

Dave Bittner: Yes. I've built a career on other people's ability to edit me down to make me sound like I can string goofy words together. But no. Thank you. It's quite an honor. And what made it even more special is that it was an industry award and it was voted on by people in the industry, but also listeners. So I just really appreciate it. It's rare for us to get these sorts of recognition. So thank you all.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: It's well deserved, Dave. Well deserved.

 

Joe Carrigan: Did you get some hardware, Dave?

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. They gave me this big heavy key, like a key to the city kind of key. Yeah. Yeah. I'll show it to you on your way out.

 

Maria Varmazis: What does it unlock?

 

Dave Bittner: My heart.

 

Maria Varmazis: Oh.

 

Dave Bittner: My heart grew three sizes that day. All right. Let's move on here. Joe, I see it says chicken update.

 

Joe Carrigan: Chicken update. Because our listeners really want to know about the chickens.

 

Dave Bittner: It's true.

 

Joe Carrigan: They love it. So and I'm happy to talk about my chickens any time. So I have -- I have a couple things. One. I have decided I'm never going to put a chicken on my shoulder again. I saw a post on one of my local groups about a guy who got pecked in the eye by a chicken he had on his shoulder. And the worst part about it is it's his good eye. So apparently he's blind in one eye.

 

Dave Bittner: There it was.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. And now he's, you know, trying to recover from a chicken peck. So I'm done holding chickens on my shoulders and looking cute. I'm going to continue to hold my favorite chicken on my arm, though. She's pretty good. But I found out -- we were out there talking and my son pulled out his phone and he has Claude AI on his phone.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: And he asked about Carol County regulations, which is the county in Maryland I live in now, about keeping a rooster. Do you have to have three acres? And it said it can't find any record of that. So I went out and I did my own search of it. I can find no record of limitation of a rooster if you have enough land to have livestock which is, believe it or not, only 20,000 square feet which is like a third of an acre or less.

 

Dave Bittner: That sounds very Carol County to me.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. It does. Right. Well, I like it, Dave.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's right. Few regulations.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Not a lot of laws telling what you can't do. So we are keeping the rooster. And we have a new name for him because his name used to be probably a rooster, but now he's definitely a rooster so we sought for ideas for a name and his name is now Diesel.

 

Maria Varmazis: Oh.

 

Joe Carrigan: Diesel the rooster. Right. Wow.

 

Dave Bittner: Maria, didn't we meet a waiter named Diesel?

 

Maria Varmazis: That -- I was going to say that sounds very familiar. Yeah. Was that in Florida or something or --

 

Dave Bittner: We were in Florida. We had a waiter named Diesel. We were at an industry event. He was a delightful, delightful man.

 

Maria Varmazis: I feel like that was my reaction at the same time. Like oh. What a name. Diesel.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. It's a last name, I think, you know, because the guy that invented the diesel engine his name was Diesel.

 

Maria Varmazis: Okay. But your chicken's first name is a last name. I mean your rooster's.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. Well, he is a chicken.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yes.

 

Joe Carrigan: He's just a rooster. So work begins on the new run this weekend. I've got a -- I'm hoping for at least a little bit of warmth so I can be out there and building a new run.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: Because that's got to happen. The way they are now is just too small for them. I've got to get them out.

 

Dave Bittner: Okay. I hesitate to ask this question, but have you checked in with any of your neighbors about the rooster?

 

Joe Carrigan: I have. Our closest neighbors. And my wife got a text. It said, "I heard your rooster crowing this morning. I love it."

 

Dave Bittner: Oh. Okay.

 

Joe Carrigan: That neighbor is happy.

 

Maria Varmazis: I'm not the only one who enjoys that sound. See?

 

Dave Bittner: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. I tell you what. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right. Well, let's jump in to some stories here. Maria, you have the honors this week. What do you got for us?

 

Maria Varmazis: I have something from the U.S Congress Joint Economic Committee of all things.

 

Dave Bittner: Wow.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. In December, this past December, they dropped a winter holidays travel scams alert based on activity that they and the FBI have been seeing as well as the FTC. And I know this episode is dropping in January and a lot of people are thinking the winter holidays are behind us. However I would like to remind people that many people travel not only for winter break through January, but also February is Chinese new year and lunar new year and a lot of people travel for that holiday as well. So winter holidays are not over, my friends. They are still continuing. So this is a peak travel season for a lot of the United States and indeed the world. But this is from the U.S Congress, this notice. So I'm going to focus on the U.S. And this joint economic committee notice was basically saying that they've seen a 500 to 900% increase in travel scams over the last 18 months, specifically on booking.com alone. And they're attributing a lot of that massive increase, 500 and 900%. What do you think would be possibly contributing to such a massive increase in slop that I just dropped a giant hint in my friend?

 

Joe Carrigan: Okay.

 

Maria Varmazis: What do you think it could be? What could be causing this issue?

 

Dave Bittner: Well, does it end with an A? Begin with an A and end with an I?

 

Maria Varmazis: It ends with an A if you speak French.

 

Dave Bittner: See? Ah. Nice save, Maria.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yes. Yes. It is indeed AI causing all this slop. So the U.S Congress Joint Economic Committee or the JEC and a whole bunch of U.S senators put out a here are some tips to avoid for common travel scams, especially in this peak winter travel season. And one of them was in watching out for travel impersonation scams watch out for fake flight notifications which is something we have talked about a little bit on this show, but apparently this is really taking off. Ha ha ha. These are text messages that come in telling you a flight that you have indeed booked is canceled and saying that you need to call the airline at a fake number to rebook your flight that has been suddenly canceled. And of course it routes you to not just a fake number, but then they take your financial information and they scam you out of your money. So I feel like, Joe, maybe we had talked about this one, you and me, at some point because we were wondering how on Earth the scammers are getting people's correct flight details.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. That's the first question I have. I don't remember having this conversation before, but that doesn't mean we didn't have it.

 

Maria Varmazis: Listeners, help us out on this one.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. I'm wondering. They're -- scammers are getting people's correct flight information, knowing that people have a flight upcoming or that they're actually travel -- they are actually in transit. So maybe you already are at your destination, but you haven't taken your return flight home yet. And they're reaching out to you saying, "Hey. Your flight's been canceled." And of course like that's going to send anybody in to a bit of a tizzy. So they're saying to especially watch out for these text messages and definitely verify that these are correct before you take any action. So certainly don't call a phone number in a text message and make sure you have the accurate phone number of any airline that you've booked through. And use the app if you can and not just trust a text message, but not everyone has the apps, but if you can the apps can be very helpful.

 

Joe Carrigan: I use the apps.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. I like the apps a lot. I was very grinchy about it. I didn't want to use them, but now I see that they're actually very responsive and sometimes they're the best way to get a hold of an airline if something goes wrong. Like better than trying to call. So I've been -- I've been sort of encouraging people to go that way as well. Another thing that this notice tells people to be careful about is using extra precautions when using a third party service like a booking.com. Make sure that the listing is legitimate. And this is of course getting very difficult thanks to AI just flooding these websites with all sorts of faulty incorrect nonexistent listings, listings that don't provide enough information or are just vague enough to be like a fill in your own adventure kind of listing. Like it's vaguely luxury, but what on Earth does that mean? So there are unfortunately just a lot of these scams on booking type websites now. And this is where a lot of people are getting burned. So take extra --

 

Joe Carrigan: Here's my take on that.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: These companies need to get this under control or this is going to become a business liability to them.

 

Maria Varmazis: Oh for sure.

 

Joe Carrigan: I mean because if you're thinking let's booking.com if you get enough people who get burned on booking.com you're never getting them back.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And the advice that this advisor gives out is go directly to a hotel's website. Go directly to an airline or a reputable travel provider, whoever that is. But again that does circumvent third party businesses entirely. So yeah. You're right. This is an existential crisis for them. I agree with you. And the other notice that this puts out is about being careful about vacation rentals. So things like VRBO, Air B&B, things like that. A lot of people are booking those. I don't know about you all where you're at, but for me summer vacation rentals that tends to get booked over the winter. Like people are home for the holidays and people are going, "Where are we going over the summer?" And stuff gets booked out in January. So this is a time where a lot of those -- like for me if you want to go to Cape Cod here in Massachusetts you've got to book by December or January.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. They get booked up.

 

Maria Varmazis: They do. They do. So there are a lot of spoofed listings on not just third party sites, but even just websites living on their own pretending that they're some sort of really awesome vacation rental at a place that doesn't exist or, you know, it's not actually available to be rented. And this is where you'll see people saying, "Pay us in wire transfer or cryptocurrency." Those are humongous red flags. But yeah. Or you can get in to this gray area of listings that are over promising and way under delivering. So this is where people really like you don't find out until six months later that what you booked is not really real. So --

 

Joe Carrigan: It's a shack out in the middle of a corn field.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. And like if that's what you want and are paying for that's great.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: But if you're expecting a palace, that's kind of a let down. So yeah. It just always buyer beware on these kinds of things. And miraculously apparently the U.S federal government actually wants to hear about these scams if you encounter them. So if you think you've been the victim of such a scam you can go to reportfraud.ftc.gov and they want to hear about it. But yes. Please be careful. This is the time of year in the United States when a lot of people are booking these kinds of things. And AI is making everything worse. So please be careful.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

 

Dave Bittner: Just this past week I saw a story warning people not to post pictures of your boarding pass because the story behind it was that somebody who was a political pundit had posted their boarding pass and was sort of bragging and said, "Ha ha. Updated to first class." You know? Leaving in an hour.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: And being a political pundit that meant that half of the people in the world love this person and half don't. Right? Right? So and evidently there's enough information on a boarding pass that people were able to go in and cancel this person's flight.

 

Maria Varmazis: That's amazing. And also horrible. And also hilarious.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Wow. Yeah. It's sort of like when people used to get a brand new credit card and they would post it on Twitter.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. Look at me.

 

Maria Varmazis: It's like please do not do that anymore. I think people aren't doing that anymore, but yeah. Boarding passes are on you. Stop posting this online, people. Just don't do it.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. All right. Well --

 

Maria Varmazis: Like travel's not stressful enough.

 

Dave Bittner: Exactly. Yeah. This time of year. All right. We'll have a link to that story in the show notes. Before I get to my main story just a quick little side story. I was having breakfast this morning with a friend of mine, my friend Mark. And he serves on the board of a nonprofit. And he was telling me that just this past week he got an email from the chair of the board on the nonprofit on which he serves and the email from the board chair said, "Hey. We're having a little bit of trouble with some financial thing here. We're hoping that you can give us access to your Zelle account and because we need to pay for something and then we'll reimburse you." Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: Zelle?

 

Dave Bittner: Scam. Right. Total scam.

 

Maria Varmazis: Goodness.

 

Dave Bittner: And evidently every member of the board received the same email. So whoever it was was going through nonprofits looking at the list of board members, seeing who's chair of the board, generating emails. And my friend went and looked and sure enough the email was a random email address that didn't have anything to do with the person who's the chair of the board.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: So but it looked -- at first glance there wasn't anything that seemed odd other than the ask itself. So it's something we've talked about before, but it's still active and just happened to a friend of mine.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

 

Dave Bittner: Just this week. But that's not my main story. My main story here is actually a report from the BBC. And this one's pretty dark actually. So this one starts with a video that is hard to forget. There's a little boy facing the camera. He's got a bald head. He looks very tired and he says he's seven years old and he has cancer and that he needs help to stay alive. And his name is Khalil. What the viewers don't know is that Khalil didn't want to record the video. His mother says a film crew asked her to shave his head even though his hair hadn't fallen out yet. They hooked him up to a fake IV drip. They told the family to pretend it was his birthday. And Khalil was given a script in English and told to repeat it. And then when he couldn't cry on cue his mother said that they put chopped onions nearby and they rubbed menthol under his eyes. Khalil really did have cancer and his mother says she agreed to the filming because she was told the video would help raise money for better treatment. And online it looked like it worked. There was a crowd funding campaign in Khalil's name that raised more than $27,000. But Khalil's mother was told the campaign had failed. She received a $700 filming fee. No donations. No follow up. And sadly a year later Khalil passed away. So BBC world service did an investigation and found that there are a lot of families around the world who were being drawn in to this sort of thing and it seems to be a coordinated scam. These parents of seriously ill kids they're filmed for these emotional crowd funding campaigns and they raise lots of money, but the families never see any of the money. Or in this case, you know, just a stipend. The BBC identified at least 15 families who said they received little or nothing. The investigation they say began with a YouTube ad. And they found more and more videos. Same sort of thing. Sick kids around the world. Same style. High quality productions. Emotional scripts. Urgent pleas. And always the same message. Time is running out. And they were able to tie these campaigns to an organization called Chance Letikva. Do I have that right? Chance Letikva?

 

Joe Carrigan: Letikva maybe.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Registered in Israel and the United States. And they found the person who is alleged to be running this sort of thing. The folks who are victims of this say a man would show up. The child would be filmed for hours and told what to say, told to cry. And parents were paid a small fee and promised more money later when donations came in. But of course the money never arrives. So there is a man who's been identified who seems to be the person behind this. I'm not going to say his name, but if you follow the link to the story you can look it up there. A whistle blower told the BBC that recruiters were told to look for beautiful children between three and nine years old without hair. And when families asked where the money went they some of them were told it had been spent on advertising. But there was no evidence that that had been provided. So the families of course feel like they were manipulated at the worst moment of their lives.

 

Maria Varmazis: They were for sure.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. And the donors also believe that they were saving lives. But at least according to the reporting here by the BBC it seems as though the vast majority of the money was simply being pocketed by someone who came up with what seems to be a scam. One mother summed it up. She said when your child is fighting to survive and someone else is profiting from that pain it's filthy. It's blood money.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

 

Dave Bittner: I can't disagree with that.

 

Joe Carrigan: No. That's 100% correct.

 

Maria Varmazis: How do they sleep at night?

 

Joe Carrigan: I don't know. This is, you know --

 

Maria Varmazis: This is beyond.

 

Joe Carrigan: This is -- I'm -- I still find myself being shocked by the disgusting depths to which these people will go for a buck. You know? You know, it's got to be like, you know, we could rob a bank or we could sell drugs or we could trick sick children's parents in to making a video of their sick kid and pocket all the donations.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: I mean I get the feeling like if you did that in a group of criminals they'd all turn to you and go, "What is the matter with you?"

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Yeah. And not just videoing sick kids, but also like causing harm to these sick children.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: You know, not -- to manipulate victims, but you know the children --

 

Dave Bittner: False hope.

 

Maria Varmazis: Just all of it. I just --

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: Like I felt the bile rising in my throat as you're talking.

 

Joe Carrigan: And we don't know what kind of cancer Khalil had, but I am sure that $20,000 could have bought a good deal of treatment for it.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. You never know, but you know. And they'll never know because the person behind this, you know, again according to the story is just pocketing the proceeds. Giving people false hope and --

 

Joe Carrigan: Is this guy still out and about, free? Have they arrested him?

 

Dave Bittner: The story does not say so I don't believe they've been arrested or anything. But the person has been identified. They live in Canada. And it seems I think they've been able to link a bunch of documents to this person, but haven't been able to contact the person directly or anything like that. So yeah. I mean it's just -- and so I guess what's the lesson here for our audience is just, you know, part of what breaks my heart about this is that it makes people more cynical about giving to legitimate needs.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: There are kids out there who have cancer and need our help. There are organizations out there who help kids with cancer and they need our help. So I guess the lesson here is if you are moved by any campaign that has to do with kids and cancer go find your local organization that does this or find a national organization with an impeccable reputation and give to them.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Yeah. That money will go far. I mean it. I can think of, and I'm sure you both can too, of scams that you've seen for people pleading for money for all sorts of reasons and then you find out later that that person was asking for money, was doing something unsavory with it. I can think of someone who was doing this like for the sake of their kids. It ends up the parents were very abusive towards their kids and they were just pocketing the money for drugs and the like. Like stuff like that.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Where it's like, you know, you're giving money directly to somebody through something and you just you really you don't really know where that's going.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: But yeah. But it's also flip side. These parents are extraordinarily vulnerable and they needed help and I mean what is the advice to them. Like don't trust people who are trying to help you in a moment when your kid is sick? I mean that's horrific. And yet that feels like that's what we've got to tell people.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. It's the lowest of the low.

 

Maria Varmazis: The lowest of the low. Exactly.

 

Joe Carrigan: I have given to people online at least once. And the time I'm thinking of there was it wasn't a kid. It was a young man who was like in his twenties. And he was going through cancer treatment. But the reason I gave to him was because another person that I knew said, "Hey. I know this guy. He's going through cancer treatment. Here's his Go Fund Me page. If you can give something, great."

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: And I said "Okay." Well, since Drew said that he knows the guy and he knows that he's going through this I'll give. I'll put some money on that.

 

Dave Bittner: Sure. Yeah. That's I don't see anything problematic about that. Yeah. So I just I want to sort of turn on this very dark story and share a story which I think I've shared here before about I have a relationship to a scam similar to this that I was almost the poster child for muscular dystrophy when I was a child.

 

Maria Varmazis: Do you have muscular dystrophy?

 

Dave Bittner: I do not.

 

Maria Varmazis: Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear that.

 

Dave Bittner: No. I do not. So when I was a kid I did some TV commercials and modeling and things like that. I'm sort of talking about when I was like seven or eight years old. Actually that's when my voice over career started. So I've been, you know, speaking for a living for a very long time. Cool. Although when I was seven or eight I wasn't doing it for a living. I was doing it to buy, you know, "Star Wars" action figures. But there was a producer who I had done some TV commercials with and called up my mother and was like, "Great news, June. I've got another job for Dave." You know, and he was totally that guy. And of course my mom was star struck and he's like, "Hey, e got a call to -- we got a modeling shoot for muscular dystrophy." And she's like, "But my son doesn't have muscular dystrophy." "Doesn't matter. Dave can look sad." Right? Well, yes he can. He can look sad. All right. Here's the date. You know, that sort of thing. And then thank God cooler heads prevailed and my mom got a call back that said, "They actually wanted a kid with muscular dystrophy. What are you going to do?" So yeah. Yeah. They were going to put me in the little leg braces and everything. But dodged. Dodged that one. So, you know, I mean obviously that wasn't as bad as this.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. That was actually -- that was actually the Muscular Dystrophy Association trying to raise money.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. They were looking to raise money, just maybe a little deception in the ad. And again cooler heads prevailed.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yep. And that didn't happen.

 

Dave Bittner: Didn't happen.

 

Maria Varmazis: I'm very glad to hear that. Yes.

 

Dave Bittner: Me too. Me too. Yeah. Especially in retrospect. Anyway. All right. I'll tell you what. We have a link to the BBC story in the show notes. Let's take a quick break right now and hear from our show sponsor. And we are back. Joe, what do you have for us this week?

 

Joe Carrigan: Well, given that this is the first episode of the new year even though we're recording it in December I don't know why I have to feel like -- I feel like I have to tell people that. Right? I just feel like I'm being dishonest if I don't tell everybody.

 

Maria Varmazis: You're getting rid of the magic, Joe. Come on.

 

Joe Carrigan: Pulling the curtain back. Pay no attention to the --

 

Dave Bittner: They're not actually listening to us live. Yeah. Okay.

 

Maria Varmazis: We're not actually in their living rooms right now.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah which --

 

Dave Bittner: Thank their heads.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. I'm so glad that we're not in their heads.

 

Maria Varmazis: Joe and the chickens in your living room.

 

Joe Carrigan: That's right. I'm so glad we're not live because I would not be nearly as entertaining as I am.

 

Maria Varmazis: We're all with them at the gym right now as they're doing their reps.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Come on. One more. One more. My story actually comes from my former pen pals over at the IRS. My former pen -- I used to have a relationship where once a month I'd write a letter to them. Send them a letter with a gift enclosed.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Okay. Sure.

 

Maria Varmazis: All right.

 

Joe Carrigan: I don't have that relationship anymore, but you know I just stopped corresponding. And they never -- we never got closure on that, by the way. Once I paid everything they were like, "Okay."

 

Dave Bittner: They didn't send you a gift basket or something.

 

Joe Carrigan: Hey, thanks. We're all done here.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. Good. Yeah. Here's a commemorative coin.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: Okay.

 

Joe Carrigan: So they are talking about tax warnings, tax scam warning signs. And because it's the first episode of the new year everybody's going to start getting their W2s in the main and 1099s.

 

Maria Varmazis: Liturgical calendar time.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Exactly. It's tax scam season is what I'm saying. Coincides with most of Lent, by the way. So it's going to go from now until the end of April and it will get -- or middle of April. It will get more intense towards the time as your filing deadline looms. Right? Assuming that you are someone who waits until the last day to file. Like me. I give my son hives. My son is my son the accountant. I give him hives every time I talk about taxes. He says this article which was posted I think last month from the IRS it -- scam warning signs. Tax scam warning signs. A big payday is one of the big warning signs. Hey. We've got this great big payout for you and we need to give it to you. Or another one here. Bad tax advice on social media that may convince you to lie on tax forms. Generally this is where I'm going to side with my son on that. Don't lie on a tax form.

 

Maria Varmazis: Generally don't lie on a tax form.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Don't lie on a tax form.

 

Maria Varmazis: So under what circumstances do you feel it's okay to lie on a tax form?

 

Joe Carrigan: Okay. It's very general. I guess all situations. I'll say that.

 

Dave Bittner: I was told once by someone that -- what is it? Incorrect deductions get disallowed. Trying to hide income sends you to jail.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Right.

 

Dave Bittner: If you want to choose which side of the tax form you want to play with, you want to get creative with.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. But still yeah. Just fly straight.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. And always take the deduction. And if they disallow it they disallow it.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: The demands or threats are another big sign. Impersonators of the IRS will say "Pay now or else." They'll threaten arrests or deportation and they don't let you question or appeal the amount you owe. So you are entitled to some due process in tax disputes. You have the right to appeal it. Now it's not like regular court. You go to the IRS's own specific judicial system or legal system. So, you know, you're not -- you're not getting a -- really not getting a fair shake. That's my own commentary. But so, you know, if you -- if you have a lot of taxes that you owe, hire somebody to help you with that. That's the best bet.

 

Maria Varmazis: This is such an American segment, I've just got to say.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. It is.

 

Maria Varmazis: People in other countries are like, "What are you talking about?"

 

Joe Carrigan: The IRS. You know, I was talking to my son about this and he says, "Look. They don't want you in jail for, you know -- " If you tell them, you know -- you're right, Dave. Tax evasion by hiding income will get you sent to jail. But not paying your taxes doesn't get you sent to jail because they know if they send you to jail they're not getting any money.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right? They want you to continue working. And worse comes to worse they will attach your wages.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. They will work out a deal with you.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. They will work out a deal with you. It's very possible. And then you too can become a pen pal with the IRS.

 

Maria Varmazis: Life pro tip right there from Joe.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Yeah. They say odd website links are also another thing that can be. Always go to irs.gov. I-R-S dot gov. Here is another section on this page that says how to know it's the IRS. And it links to another page that says "How we will contact you." So it says "Generally we typically contact people for the first time by mail through the U.S post service." So you will get a letter that says "Hey. Time to pay up." And then you'll correspond to them and you'll get letters back and they come in easily recognized IRS envelopes. We get them from time to time at the house now for the previous owner and we say, "Hey, you've got a few IRS letters here." So we recognize them when they show up. And once you get one you'll never forget it. You'll always see it and your heart will skip a beat. But don't worry. It's not that bad of a deal. Other ways they will contact you is via email. They -- I found all of these very interesting. They will send you email with your permission with a few exceptions like criminal investigations. They may send an unsolicited email with a criminal investigation. I don't know what that means, but I think if you get an unsolicited email from the IRS and you've verified that and it's a criminal investigation you need to talk to somebody in tax law. Text messages. We will only send you text messages with your permission. Phone. The IRS or a private collection agency may call to address collection account matters. In some cases the IRS will use automated messages to direct you to irs.gov. Now just last week we heard that it's a violation of federal law to call with an unsolicited voicemail a prerecorded message. I'm going to bet in that law there's an exemption for the government.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: As the IRS [inaudible 00:32:06] we want to do that.

 

Dave Bittner: Point of order.

 

Joe Carrigan: But when you get these messages, these recorded messages, they will tell you go to irs.gov and pay the bill that you owe or do whatever needs to be done. They might send a fax or they might visit in person and they say these are rare. And then they have a whole other document that I won't go in to because frankly I haven't read it yet, but how and when the IRS will visit you or your business.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: So some of the things they say they don't do is they don't direct message or make payment -- or take payment on social media platforms. Right.

 

Dave Bittner: Pay my IRS bill on Facebook.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Go to a Bitcoin ATM obviously.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: They do not accept gift cards or prepaid debit cards as payment.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Do they take Bitcoin?

 

Joe Carrigan: Let's see. Does it say that on this thing? It doesn't say that in this thing.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Nowadays who knows?

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. I know. I mean there's been a push I think in this administration to accept those kinds of things, but I don't know it that's made its way to the IRS or not.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. I don't know. I was talking with somebody the other day and we were talking about paying taxes from stock accounts. Right? And you have to when you take a distribution from like a tax deferred account this is the kind of conversation I have around my house, Dave. It's exciting and riveting. Right? I grew up like this. But when you take a distribution from a retirement account you have to pay taxes on that because it's a tax deferred account. So if you -- you can withdraw from your IRA in to your personal account stock, but you have to sell some of it because you're going to have to cover the taxes or withdraw enough cash to cover the taxes as well. I found that very interesting. I didn't know that.

 

Dave Bittner: Good for you, Joe. Good for you.

 

Joe Carrigan: Riveting. Right? Right now everybody's like hitting the skip button on this podcast.

 

Maria Varmazis: What? About taxes?

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Why would anyone find taxes boring, Joe?

 

Joe Carrigan: The IRS will not call you with an automated message that threatens then directs to websites that aren't irs.gov. They will all go to irs.gov. They will not threaten to call law enforcement or immigration officials. They will not take your citizenship status, driver's license, or business license. Again these are things you need to make money to pay your taxes. Even if you do owe money to the IRS. They are not interested in doing this. And they will not mail tax debit resolution advertisements. So there are services out there where they say "We'll negotiate with the IRS on your behalf." And I don't think -- I don't have any experience with this, but I don't think they get you out of any of your back taxes. But they may be able to reduce your fees and penalties.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: So yeah. But you're pretty much going to have to pay your taxes.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Wow. You know, I had -- I had an experience once. I was more than a pen pal one time, Joe.

 

Joe Carrigan: Really?

 

Dave Bittner: They came to my house.

 

Joe Carrigan: Really?

 

Maria Varmazis: What?

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I were newly married and there had been a family member who had passed away and left us a small inheritance. And that was somehow enough to trigger an audit where they didn't just ask for documentation. They wanted to come and look around.

 

Maria Varmazis: Wow.

 

Dave Bittner: So they did. And it was a -- and, you know, of course you're terrified. Right? And then we're in our twenties so we don't know anything.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: And it was actually a lovely woman and she had a trainee with her and once they quickly established what had gone on, that, you know, that there was this inheritance and this is what it was, and we had to explain it, then it all just kind of became perfunctory. They're like, "Oh. Okay. That makes sense."

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Dave Bittner: I do remember one moment where they were asking for some documentation about things and again it's just right after we were married and the woman asked us, she said -- she asked my wife. She said, "Well, I see this bill here for like, you know, $100. What is this for?" And my wife said "Well, I don't want to tell you." And so the IRS lady leans in and her trainee leans in. And I turn to my wife and I say, "Now, honey, I think you can tell like, you know, what. Just tell them what it is." You know, what could it possibly be? She said, "I went with my mom to get my nails done before the wedding." And everybody exhales. And the IRS lady turns to her trainee and says, "You see? If you just talk about things with people most of the time it's worked out and it's not a big deal." So anyway. That was our story. So, you know, if you're on the up and up don't be too scared if they reach out to you because my experience was that they were actually pleasant people in the end, you know. It wasn't adversarial.

 

Joe Carrigan: Do you want to know what they were looking for when you went in there? Because I know this. No. I don't -- I know this because again this is a conversation we had around the dinner table.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: They're looking for to see if everything that you have can be accounted for with the income that you've declared.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right? And that's called gross receipts. They want to make sure that you're not living this abundant lifestyle without an explanation for how you're getting the cash in because that is how they got Al Capone.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. Yeah. And that's what --

 

Maria Varmazis: Dave Bittner. Al Capone. You know.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's what this -- and again this little inheritance threw our pattern out of whack and that got their attention.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. You got flagged for an audit is what happened.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Exactly. So we -- and who knows? We might have just won the IRS lottery. But I mean there has to be a certain amount of randomness to it as well, how much resources they have to be able to throw at these things.

 

Joe Carrigan: Correct.

 

Dave Bittner: Anyway all right.

 

Joe Carrigan: So stay alert. Don't fall for IRS scams. And also if -- even if the IRS does accept payment in cryptocurrency don't pay them in cryptocurrency.

 

Dave Bittner: Don't encourage it.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Don't encourage that.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. All right. We'll have links to the irs.gov website. Has all this information on it. Joe, Maria, it is time for our catch of the day. [ Soundbite of Reeling in Fishing Line ] [ Music ]

 

Joe Carrigan: Dave, our catch of the day comes from the scam bait subreddit and Dave I don't know. I'm a little star struck because Jason Momoa is reaching out to this guy. One of my favorite actors.

 

Dave Bittner: That's right. That's right.

 

Maria Varmazis: The aquaman?

 

Joe Carrigan: Aquaman.

 

Dave Bittner: The aquaman.

 

Joe Carrigan: Khal Drogo himself.

 

Dave Bittner: So I'm going to be Jason Momoa here because it's really it's like looking in a mirror. Maria, you can be the poor victim here.

 

Maria Varmazis: Sure.

 

Dave Bittner: Actually not. Victim's too strong a word. Maria, before we go along here as a fine lady yourself does the Jason Momoa type hold any interest to you whatsoever?

 

Maria Varmazis: I mean I have eyes.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right. That's what my wife says.

 

Maria Varmazis: I mean I'm not totally dead inside if that's what you're asking.

 

Dave Bittner: Not yet. Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: Not yet. Give me a few years. You know, I only have eyes for my husband. Obviously, Dave. Because he listens to this show.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: I will say Jason Momoa is not my specific type, but you know throw some glasses on him and have him start playing D&D and then we'll talk.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: Much more of a Johnny Galecki kind of guy.

 

Maria Varmazis: I like my software engineers, you know. That's my type.

 

Dave Bittner: That's fair. All right. So Mr. Momoa starts off and says "Thank you for your love and unflinching support towards my movie industry." Heart emoji.

 

Maria Varmazis: Hello. What love and support?

 

Dave Bittner: Hello? Hello, dear. How are you doing today?

 

Maria Varmazis: I'm fine. And you?

 

Dave Bittner: I'm good. Thanks for asking. How's your day going so far?

 

Maria Varmazis: I just said it's fine. Any reason you reached out to me?

 

Dave Bittner: I just want to hear your voice honestly. Sometimes I reach out because you cross my mind and I don't ignore that. No pressure. Just checking in.

 

Maria Varmazis: Hear my voice? How do I cross your mind? I don't know you.

 

Dave Bittner: I'm a responsible man. I enjoy my job and strive for success in everything I do.

 

Joe Carrigan: This guy's just copying and pasting from a script.

 

Dave Bittner: I'm a fun loving man, jovial, lovely, and passionate. I think of myself as being clever, but harmless. I'm supporting, caring. I own a thesaurus. I --

 

Maria Varmazis: Joe, do you think this might be a scam? I don't know.

 

Dave Bittner: I have a loyal and tolerant character, humble, honest, understanding, truthful. I'm a very passionate physical person that would want the same in a mate.

 

Maria Varmazis: Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

 

Dave Bittner: Deeply romantic, optimistic, hopeful, wise, and smart. I have a big honest heart. And I don't like being lied to.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Big honest heart. Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: I don't like being lied to. [inaudible 00:41:30] Here's a whole big block of lies and I don't like being lied to.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Maria Varmazis: It's projection. Right? Yeah. It's --

 

Joe Carrigan: Right.

 

Maria Varmazis: Not exactly the words of a humble person. Smiley face sweat drop emoji.

 

Dave Bittner: Confidence isn't arrogance if it's earned, and softened by someone who keeps me laughing. Please.

 

Joe Carrigan: What does that even mean?

 

Dave Bittner: What's your name and where are you chatting from? What do you do for a living? I mean where do you work? Are you married or single? Do you have kids?

 

Maria Varmazis: Earned by doing what exactly? Okay. So I'm Hilda from Norway. I've been working as a project manager in technical fields for years, but I am taking a completely different path and studying to be a psychotherapist. Divorced. No kids by choice.

 

Dave Bittner: Earned by showing up even when it's uncomfortable, by doing the work on myself instead of pointing fingers.

 

Maria Varmazis: Ignoring me completely. Yeah. Okay.

 

Dave Bittner: By choosing growth over ego, honesty over shortcuts, and learning to listen instead of being loud. Respect is earned through consistency, kindness, and standing by your values, especially when no one's watching.

 

Maria Varmazis: Wow.

 

Dave Bittner: I admire the courage it takes to change paths and study the human mind. That says a lot about you. Norway's got strong souls. Sounds like you're one of them.

 

Maria Varmazis: Thanks for that, Chat GPT. Those are nice words. How do you apply that in everyday life?

 

Dave Bittner: For me it's about intention, how you treat people, how you move through the day and how you stay true to yourself. I try to live with an open heart and let my actions speak louder than words.

 

Maria Varmazis: Can you give a recent concrete example of that?

 

Dave Bittner: I've heard about your work and your life.

 

Maria Varmazis: Ignored.

 

Dave Bittner: And I respect how open you've been. I'd like you to know me in the same way, not in vague words, but through consistency and actions. I really do like your kind of person and I find so much tranquility in relating with such a loyal fan like you. And I will like to know you much more personally.

 

Maria Varmazis: Consistency usually shows up in small habits. Which ones matter most to you?

 

Dave Bittner: Do you have Zangi? I do like us to communicate better in private. I also would get to call you to see your lovely face on video call on there. Firstly need to know more about you. Sounds like we've gone off the script.

 

Maria Varmazis: Way off script. This is wild.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Now he's not using Chat GPT anymore either.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Well, the person wrote video calls are possible here too, but I don't do that with strangers. And then it looks like they switched to a different app.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Why don't you just jump down to that next green one there?

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. I'm working on an assignment so I can't be glued to my phone. On X I asked you to tell me more about yourself like I told you about me, where I live, marital status, and so on.

 

Dave Bittner: As for me, I live in Hawaii. My name is Jason Momoa. I'm an actor and a film producer. By the way, my team has pointed out to me several times now how these dang imposters keep reaching out to my amazing fans pretending to be me. Some even go so far as scamming people. Have you come across any of them?

 

Joe Carrigan: Because I'm looking for them.

 

Maria Varmazis: No. I don't know who you are until now.

 

Dave Bittner: No worries, my friend. Not everyone knows me until I show up with messy hair and a big smile.

 

Maria Varmazis: Okay.

 

Dave Bittner: And that's it.

 

Joe Carrigan: Messy hair and a big smile. That's a great way to describe Jason Momoa.

 

Maria Varmazis: Dave Bittner in a nutshell right there.

 

Joe Carrigan: I mean if you've ever seen like pictures of Jason Momoa when he's meeting fans he's like hilarious about it.

 

Dave Bittner: Oh yeah. And he seems like a genuinely pleasant guy to be around.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. He does.

 

Dave Bittner: I mean he's --

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. This is a nice conversation with a genuine Jason Momoa. This is nice. Nice guy. Lots of life lessons in this chat with him. Like respect and consistency.

 

Joe Carrigan: You know, one of the things I notice in this and I notice a lot of it, they keep using the term openness or open. And openness. I'm wondering if that's like some kind of hypnotic thing and they've found that that works in their AB testing.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. It could be. Could be. I mean it's definitely all kinds of emotional manipulation there.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

 

Dave Bittner: But well all right. Well, maybe we can reach out to Jason, see if he'll be a guest on our show, see if he --

 

Joe Carrigan: I would love to have Jason Momoa on this show. The real Jason Momoa. We won't get some scam artist.

 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. Exactly.

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Asking an actual celebrity about all the people impersonating them all the time, how much it must drive them crazy, I'd love to hear about that.

 

Dave Bittner: That's an interesting idea.

 

Maria Varmazis: I'm sure it causes a lot of genuine harm to their actual fans. So I'm sure it's not like funny for them. I'm sure it's genuinely upsetting.

 

Joe Carrigan: I -- Dave, if you get Jason Momoa on this show I want to be on the interview when --

 

Maria Varmazis: You and everyone else at N2K, Joe. Just for the record.

 

Dave Bittner: Wouldn't it be -- you know, I sometimes I have wondered on occasion when I get lost in my thoughts who is the most famous person who regularly listens to one of our N2K podcasts. You know?

 

Joe Carrigan: I'd like to know who the most famous person who regularly listens to "Hacking Humans" is.

 

Maria Varmazis: If you think it's you, please email us.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's right. If you are a celebrity that people would know about who would like to appear on our show --

 

Maria Varmazis: Who is not Dave Bittner.

 

Joe Carrigan: I've talked about this before on my theory on celebrity.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: And that is that everybody is at least an F list celebrity. Right? And it hearkens -- I'm trying to formalize this in some kind of way, but it goes back to the six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: Right? So that you're only six steps away from anybody else in the world.

 

Dave Bittner: Right.

 

Joe Carrigan: Including A list celebrities. So if you're like one step away from an A list celebrity you're a B list celebrity.

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: If you're two steps away you're a C list celebrity.

 

Dave Bittner: I went to summer camp with Edward Norton. What doe that make me?

 

Joe Carrigan: Like if you called Edward Norton right now --

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

 

Joe Carrigan: Would he answer the phone? You say, "Hey. It's Dave from high school." Or summer camp.

 

Dave Bittner: He would. He would answer the phone and then I'd say, "Hey, it's Dave from summer camp." And then he would hang up.

 

Joe Carrigan: Okay. He remembers the [inaudible 00:47:28] you gave him.

 

Dave Bittner: And say "Please delete this number." Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. That's about it. But --

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. I mean I don't know. Edward. You know.

 

Dave Bittner: Well, that makes my Bacon number one actually because of Eddie, what we used to call him in summer camp.

 

Joe Carrigan: It's [inaudible 00:47:46].

 

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, but if Ed Norton called you would it be a scam or would you be like, "Hmm."

 

Joe Carrigan: That's a good question.

 

Dave Bittner: Well, that's a good -- well, so I have spoken to Ed Norton on the phone in his post celebrity days.

 

Joe Carrigan: Oh. Have you?

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I guess that counts.

 

Maria Varmazis: And you're sure it was him?

 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Pretty sure. Pretty sure.

 

Joe Carrigan: After we're done recording I have questions.

 

Dave Bittner: Okay. I'll be happy to tell you about it. It was a favor we were able to do for him.

 

Joe Carrigan: Oh. Okay. Okay.

 

Maria Varmazis: That's cool.

 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Cool.

 

Dave Bittner: All right. I'll tell you what. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. [ Music ] And that is "Hacking Humans" brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to hackinghumans@n2k.com. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. We're mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Tre Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.

 

Joe Carrigan: I'm Joe Carrigan.

 

Maria Varmazis: And I'm Maria Varmazis.

 

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening. [ Music ]