Love was the hook.
Simon Horswell?: This is someone who can never meet you in person, because the person they presented to you doesn't exist. So look out for the fact that you can't meet this person in real-life.
Dave Bittner: Hello everyone, and welcome to N2K Cyberwire's "Hacking Humans" podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes, and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is Joe Carrigan. Hello, Joe!
Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave!
Dave Bittner: And our N2K colleague and host of the "T-Minus Space Daily" podcast, Maria Varmazis. Hello, Maria!
Maria Varmazis: Hi, Dave! And hi Joe, missed you both!
Dave Bittner: [Laughs] We missed you too.
Joe Carrigan: We missed you!
Dave Bittner: Yeah, welcome back, welcome back [laughter]! While you were gallivanting around rocket ships in Florida, we were holding down the fort.
Maria Varmazis: Well, it's a tough job, [laughter] but someone had to do it, so-
Dave Bittner: I know, I know [laughing].
Joe Carrigan: With Michelle's help. You know, that's right.
Maria Varmazis: Thank you, Michelle.
Dave Bittner: We've got some good stories to share this week, but first, we've got some follow-up here. Joe, do you want to do the honors? What have we got?
Joe Carrigan: Sure, this one says, "Hi Dave, Joe, and Maria. I love your podcast. One of my favorites, I look forward to it each week." That's very nice thank you.
Dave Bittner: That's nice!
Maria Varmazis: Thank you, that's nice.
Joe Carrigan: "I like to think of myself as fairly scam-savvy, and this text my wife got had me convinced it was a phishing text, and it's a text from Bofa Securities-
Maria Varmazis: No, no, no-Bank of America.
Joe Carrigan: Bank of America [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: Oh no!
Joe Carrigan: I couldn't resist saying Bofa.
Maria Varmazis: No, no, not bofa! No.
Joe Carrigan: I will enlighten Dave as to the mean meaning of Bofa after this, after we record-
Maria Varmazis: No, no, I'm pretty sure Dave knows.
Dave Bittner: What?
Maria Varmazis: Dave, you've got to know-
Dave Bittner: No, I have no idea.
Maria Varmazis: Really? Oh man.
Dave Bittner: I'm going to Google Bofa...
Joe Carrigan: Okay, no, no, don't!
Maria Varmazis: No, no, don't Google that, Dave. Don't google it.
Dave Bittner: I'll wait till after the show to Google it?
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Okay. Alright. Bofa? [Laughter] Am I making it worse by saying bofa, bofa, bofa [laughter]?
Joe Carrigan: Yes [laughter] much worse! But also much funnier.
Dave Bittner: Well then, I can't wait to learn more about bofa [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: I've got to say it [laughing]-
Dave Bittner: I'm really looking forward to the end of the show, when I can experience bofa [laughter]. Oh, this is good, I'm so-I'm so happy everyone is laughing at my expense.
Maria Varmazis: [Laughing] I'm like crying over here [laughing].
Joe Carrigan: Dave, when I tell you what this is, you will be like-I wish I didn't know.
Dave Bittner: Oh [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: It's perfect that he doesn't, though.
Dave Bittner: Alright, no, no-don't ruin it. Save it. I'll get it after the show [laughter], figure it out, and we can enjoy it off air, together. In the meanwhile [overlapping speakers] message Bank of America Security.
Maria Varmazis: Bank of America, B of A! Yes [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: We need you to view this image of check number-and it's got a bunch of zeroes and then four ones, for which is an odd check number, right? It's essentially just four ones? For $169.40 from the account ending in some numbers, not going to read those out loud. To confirm it is accurate, because scammers may change the payee's name, log in online, or go to www.bankofamerica.com, to validate, and it has a link there-
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Is the payee name correct? Reply yes or no by 5:00 p.m. tomorrow. To opt out of fraud alerts, reply stop.
Dave Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: This reeks of a scam message.
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Certainly weird-
Joe Carrigan: I would not click on this link.
Dave Bittner: No.
Joe Carrigan: Click--
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, click-
Joe Carrigan: Right, I would not click on the link. Right.
Maria Varmazis: No, nope, mm-mm.
Dave Bittner: Huh.
Joe Carrigan: How many of them? No [laughter], I'm not going to. I would not--
Maria Varmazis: Both of them [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Right. I would [laughter]-just bathing in my ignorance here.
Joe Carrigan: You're going to be so [overlapping speakers and laughter]-I'm going to take away your bliss after the show Dave [Maria laughs].
Dave Bittner: Good, I'll look forward to that.
Maria Varmazis: I'm going to be seated for this one, let me tell you [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: The check number and the URL were clickable in the original format, in the original text.
Dave Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: She didn't remember writing a check recently, and when she went to her banking app, not going to the link, which is good, there was no check listed in the activity window. I loaded a throw-away VM and loaded the link, it goes to-what looks like the Bank of America login screen. No way am I entering any information there. Nope, good-good policy. It so looks like a phish, is what Dave says. This is from Dave, by the way, I forgot to mention that at the beginning.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, different Dave.
Joe Carrigan: Not Dave--
Maria Varmazis: Dave E-
Dave Bittner: Davy, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: "I told her to call the bank and talk to them. After waiting on hold for about an hour"-an hour, really?-
Dave Bittner: Ah, wow.
Joe Carrigan: "It turns out, this is a real text from Bank of America Fraud Department.
Dave Bittner: Huh!
Joe Carrigan: "It was a check someone had hung onto for a while before depositing. Why in the holy heck would Bank of America have procedures [laughter] like this? Just thought you might find this interesting." I do find this interesting.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: I also find it interesting that you call the Fraud Department and wait on hold for an hour [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: An hour [laughter], who is going to do that? That's crazy.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I don't have an hour-I don't have an hour in my day to sit around and wait for someone to get to me. On a fraud issue. I'm-hm [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, if I'm freaking out that it's fraud, I don't want to wait an hour, but uh, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: This is something that would make me consider changing banks. First off, the text is not-not great, but the fact that I would wait on hold for an hour to talk to fraud-the Fraud Department-yeah, that would be enough to set me off.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: I agree with Dave, here, that this has all the hallmarks of a scam.
Joe Carrigan: Absolutely.
Dave Bittner: I mean, there is the artificial time horizon, right? Contact us by 5:00 p.m. tomorrow--
Joe Carrigan: Right, or else-
Maria Varmazis: Or the check gets it!
Dave Bittner: [Laughs] Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: I mean, the only thing, when I was originally looking at this, the URL looks legit. Bank of America dot com-but there's no red flags in the URL.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, but I'm always leery of clicking on these things because maybe they're using a different letter, a different Unicode letter, that looks like a B, or an A, or-
Dave Bittner: An O.
Joe Carrigan: An O, yeah.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, that's true.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, or if your glasses prescription needs a little update and you just miss it because it's-yeah. Easy. It's Bank of America, that "of" is actually a zero, but-hm.
Dave Bittner: Hm.
Joe Carrigan: Right, or that B is actually an L and a C, crammed really close together.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: You know, I recently got a call from a bank, out of the blue, I was um...uh, let's see, how do I say this? As listeners know, last year my father passed away. We've been settling his estate, and in doing so, there was a check that my brother received that was sizeable [laughs], right? Not life-changing, but sizeable.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: And I am the Executor of the estate, so it was a check that I had written and signed, and all that kind of stuff, and I was sitting home doing what I do best, minding my own business-
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: And my phone rings, and it's a woman from the bank comes up on my phone as being from I believe it was like Navy Federal Credit Union, something like that.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: Which would be a place that my brother would bank, because his wife is a Navy veteran.
Joe Carrigan: Your father was also a Navy veteran, right?
Dave Bittner: My father was also a Navy veteran, that's right. And so anyway, she was just calling to check to make sure that I had actually written this check and signed it, and that it was all on the up and up.
Joe Carrigan: Hm!
Dave Bittner: She didn't ask for any specifics, didn't ask for, you know, just basically checking in. She seemed very appreciative that I answered my phone, because that probably never happens.
Joe Carrigan: Right, yeah [laughter].
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] But anyway, you know, just interesting little bit, and it made me wonder what would happen had I not answered the phone? Would it have meant that they hold it for another week?
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I don't know [laughs]. It's a good question.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, I don't know, so anyway, alright what else do we have, here, Joe? Any other follow up?
Joe Carrigan: I've got some chicken updates, Dave.
Dave Bittner: Ah!
Joe Carrigan: I now have more than one hen laying.
Dave Bittner: Oh!
Joe Carrigan: I know that I have at least two different hens laying, because the eggs are different colors.
Maria Varmazis: Oh...
Joe Carrigan: And I think I may have as many as three hens laying eggs on slower schedules than normal, but they-but it could just be, too, with one just getting into a rhythm. I don't know. But I have at least two.
Dave Bittner: [Laughs] Is this the thing like, where once one chicken starts laying, do the others get the message and say-
Maria Varmazis: Get jealous?
Dave Bittner: Yeah [laughs].
Joe Carrigan: I don't know.
Dave Bittner: Jealous, or is there some, you know, something in the air, the water, where they-it just, now it snowballs, and they all start laying?
Joe Carrigan: I think it just has to do with the fact that they're all about the same age, within like a day of each other. That's much more likely I think.
Maria Varmazis: Hm...That's cool. I also have a chicken update.
Dave Bittner: Oh!
Maria Varmazis: I do not have chickens. I have-I put a link in the script that I wanted to get your reaction to. And the headline says, "Let's Stop Shipping Baby Chickens in the Mail."
Joe Carrigan: Mmm.
Maria Varmazis: Mmm.
Joe Carrigan: What is this about, I mean, I guess, they're saying we should stop sending baby chickens in the mail?
Dave Bittner: Nothing gets by you, Joe [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: You're right [laughter]. Is that it?
Maria Varmazis: Because-[laughing] uh yes, because USPS can't guarantee 48-hour delivery anymore for the chicks so-
Joe Carrigan: Okay, yeah, well if that's the case, then yeah, absolutely you should stop sending them in the mail. When chickens hatch, they have enough food and water, they can go three days. They don't need to eat or drink for three days.
Dave Bittner: Oh...
Joe Carrigan: But you know, in the time between hatching, you can't just pick them up and put them in a box, but like, within a day, you can pick them up, put them in a box, and if you can get them anywhere within one day or two days they'll be fine.
Dave Bittner: Mm-hm.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: But if not, if it's going to take more than 48 hours, yeah, you're going to get a dead box-a box of dead chicks. And nobody wants that.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, apparently this-this article is about how people are basically receiving [stuttering] boxes of dead chicks.
Joe Carrigan: It's a tongue-twister. A very sad tongue-twister.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, chicks that are spending like five days in transit-
Joe Carrigan: No that's terrible, you can't do that.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, so I just wanted to share that, I was like, I'm curious what you think, so.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, that's-maybe a different carrier. I don't know. If you can get a carrier that can guarantee that you'll get them in two days, then yes go ahead and do that. But if it's going to-if USPS says we can't guarantee this anymore, then...
Dave Bittner: You just go to Harbor Freight and get chickens. Don't they sell occasionally-carry chickens?
Joe Carrigan: Tractor Supply has them.
Dave Bittner: Tractor Supply, that's what it was-[overlapping speakers]--
Maria Varmazis: Anywhere somewhat suburban, a lot of places have chicks pretty easily, you just walk in, you can usually find them.
Dave Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: Usually in the spring.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah. But don't get them for easter, because that's not a good idea.
Joe Carrigan: No. I've heard that people do that, and that's just terrible, because-no! Don't do that. I mean, if you're going to raise the chicken to be a chicken-remember, these are flock animals. You need multiple. In fact-when I bought the ones at Tractor Supply, they said we will not sell you less than three chicks.
Dave Bittner: Oh, huh!
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Because you need, you know, it's like, any herd animal, or flock animal, can't live alone. They need to have other-like sheep. You can't buy just one sheep and expect that sheep to be okay.
Dave Bittner: Right.
Joe Carrigan: You need like two or three sheep, at least.
Dave Bittner: Huh, okay. You know, I saw a video last week, of a-of a-I think it was a hen. It was a mother hen. Defending her brood from a hawk.
Joe Carrigan: Hm!
Dave Bittner: And I mean whew! Man, don't mess with a mother hen. This hawk didn't know what hit him.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah [laughter]. I've seen roosters, videos of roosters, killing hawks.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: You know, like having them pinned down, and like, it's like-- war footage, you know?
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: It's like the hawk's last moment of life, and the rooster has its claws up, and you know, has one set of claws pinning the hawk down, and the other set of claws is about to just end this hawk.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: End this hawk!
Dave Bittner: Finish him [laughter]!
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: Yeah. Alright, I tell you what, let's get to some stories here [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: That's enough chicken talk!
Dave Bittner: Enough chicken talk. But before we do, thanks to everyone who sends us in follow-up, we do appreciate it. And thanks to Dave E. for sending in your story. Interesting stuff. And if you'd like to send us something, it's hackinghumans@n2k.com. [ Music ] Alright Maria, you are up first this week. What do you got for us?
Maria Varmazis: Well Dave, in this season of love, I figured I'd go for a throwback. When is the last time either of you thought about Nigerian princes?
Dave Bittner: Oh--
Joe Carrigan: It's been a while.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, it has been a while.
Maria Varmazis: It has, it has. Even just that phrase, a Nigerian prince, oh, it has been a little bit. So why don't we dust that part of our brains off, a little bit, for this story. So, I should mention that this is all allegation. No one has been formally charged in this story yet, so you know, innocent until proven guilty, I suppose, but, this one comes to us by way of the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project, and Ghana Web dot com. There is this little mini documentary that just got published about this specific situation, just, as the time of this recording, I was kind of fascinated about it. It was a romance scam, and a humanitarian scam, all in one.
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Maria Varmazis: So, to set up the story, unfortunately our victim is a-or, you know, her name is Laura, or that's the name she's going by for this story. She is a Romanian businesswoman. And she got some outreach on LinkedIn, like a lot of us-or she's spending a lot of her time on LinkedIn, and there was like this hot lead on LinkedIn, and it seemed totally up her alley. It's someone looking to invest millions of euros in humanitarian causes in her native Romania. And this wasn't just anyone, this was the Crown Prince of Dubai, on LinkedIn-
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Wow!
Maria Varmazis: Reaching out to Laura, specifically [laughter continues]. So yes, not a Nigerian prince, but an Emeraude prince, well, put a pin in that one actually, but yeah. So obviously we know this is not the real deal, just in case-spoiler alert on that one-but the chat between Laura and the so-called Crown Prince of Dubai, goes on for two years. Thousands and thousands of messages go on between the two of them. And it actually does lead to romance, at some point, so it blossoms, how sweet. And slowly, over the course of those two years, Laura is losing hundreds of thousands of Euros, of course, because I guess the Crown Prince of Dubai needs money? [Laughter] Yeah.
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Right.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Maria Varmazis: Anyway, this-the story has actually like two really interesting twists that is really what caught me here. The first one was, there actually was a request to meet up in person, in London, with the Crown Prince of Dubai's financial manager. And there was a real person that Laura met with. There was a real meeting, and at this meeting there was paperwork, and banking websites shown to Laura, where, you know, large deposits have been shown, and that she was also assured that more deposits need to be made, and you know, of course, because we're talking about a lot of money crossing international borders, there are fees. So she was shown the fee charts. All that kind of thing, and to be fair, banking across international borders is confusing, and I sympathize. So, you know, it seems all on the up and up, especially since Laura flew to London, and met someone in person, who seemed very legitimate, you know, that knew exactly what she'd been talking to the Crown Prince of Dubai about.
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Maria Varmazis: And, in all, Laura sent nearly three million Euros, bit by bit to someone over the course of time that she starts to suspect might actually be a scammer, yeah. So she starts to have the realization that maybe this is fake, and it's a very slow wave of realization, especially as she starts getting hit with more fees. And she's messaging her contact, through the Crown Prince of Dubai, saying things like "I hope when I pay these fees, I will get access to some of the funds that I have sent, because I'm starting to suspect nothing is happening to this money," of course, and so she's sinking more and more money into this scam. Because the bank that she was shown at that in-person meetup was fake. The website was fake. The fees-all fake. All of it going into the pocket of this scammer. You want to guess who it was that she met with in person [laughing] in London?
Dave Bittner: Was it the guy who was pretending to be the prince?
Maria Varmazis: Indeed. One of them-
Joe Carrigan: Is this the-oh! Is it, this is a team of people?
Maria Varmazis: Yeah [laughs], it was one of them. So, here is my favorite little twist. There were apparently three people involved on the scam side of things. All yes, based in Nigeria, that's how the Nigerian prince tie-in happens here. What do you think happens when you put three million Euros, or so, in the hands of three scammers [laughing], what do you think might happen there?
Joe Carrigan: They buy a lot of cool stuff, like flashy cars [laughter]-
Maria Varmazis: This is true-but do you think-
Dave Bittner: They retire and think better of what they're doing?
Joe Carrigan: No!
Maria Varmazis: No, no, do you think they are nice and they share the profits evenly or [laughter]?
Dave Bittner: Uh, hm, sure.
Maria Varmazis: [Laughter] Sure, yes, sure. So, as Laura is starting to slowly figure out that maybe this is a giant scam, and she's trying to get her money back, and trying to do refunds, or just trying everything she can, the other scammers in this team of three, are speaking up against the one that met up with her in person, going "don't give him any more money, give it to me, and I'll help you, because that guy is terrible, that's not actually going anywhere, but I'll help you, so like, quit giving him your money," you know, like, "I'm actually the one you want to help you." And over the course of time Laura goes, well okay, so what is the name of the person I've actually been talking to, if he's not actually the Financial Adviser for the Crown Prince of Dubai? And one of the scammers gives the actual government name of the prime scammer here. The person that Laura met with, and happens to have a photo of. So, one of the scammer partners turned in his buddy-
Joe Carrigan: Whoa, whoa!
Dave Bittner: Wow! No honor among thieves!
Maria Varmazis: Truly, truly. So this-the head scammer has been outed. And I guess at this point is when Laura reaches out to the OCCRP, the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project, because then, with that information, and the guy's photo, they start looking into this. And as Joe-as you kind of predicted-this guy is not hiding whatsoever. Having his legitimate name, he's all over Instagram, he's all over social media [laughter], he is real thrilled for everyone to see his newfound wealth, his multiple houses in Nigeria, his fancy cars, his luxury watches, Louis Vuitton I guess whatever, the luggage I guess? He's flying first-class to London from Nigeria [laughs], why is he flying to London?
Joe Carrigan: To scam more people!
Maria Varmazis: Maybe! His wife is also posting a lot. Oh, thanks be to God, for all this money that we're getting that's letting us buy all this wonderful stuff. Not going to say how we're getting this money-
Joe Carrigan: Right!
Maria Varmazis: But isn't it super, super great. So yeah, the dude is not hiding whatsoever. He's just throwing around all this money.
Dave Bittner: Wow.
Maria Varmazis: So right now, the UK police are involved here, as are Nigerian authorities. So this is all ongoing. It's all alleged, until someone is formally, formally charged. I am very much going to keep an eye on this case, because I think it's fun. And this is a drop in the bucket, I'm sure. But for Laura's case, she's only gotten back around 100,000 Euro, of her nearly three million that she has lost. So I don't know if she's going to get any more money back. It's a crying shame, because that is a lot of money.
Joe Carrigan: Yep!
Maria Varmazis: But I find it really amazing that the-the key to this story was that the other scammers turned the head scammer in.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: That's pretty funny. That's a good wrinkle.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Playing one off the other.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, I mean, three million Euros is a lot of money, so I can see why people would start getting really greedy.
Dave Bittner: You know, over on the only malware in the building podcast that I do, one of my co-hosts, Keith Malarsky, is a former FBI agent, and he worked a lot of these scam cases with folks overseas, money laundering, and all that sort of stuff. And he always talks about how a lot of the information they would get was from the crooks' wives, bragging online [laughter] about their wealth.
Joe Carrigan: Huh!
Maria Varmazis: Yep, yeah.
Dave Bittner: That's how they would know where they were, they would, you know, if they-because a lot of times they'd get them for traveling to a country that had an extradition agreement with the U.S.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Maria Varmazis: Right.
Dave Bittner: So they vacation in, you know, the south of France, and by watching the wife's social media, they would know that they're there. She's posting pictures of herself, and her spouse, and living high off the hog, and that's how they get them. Through the wife.
Joe Carrigan: Hm!
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, I wonder how often the wife actually knows where that money has come from? I'm sure many of them are not ignorant, but I'm wondering.
Dave Bittner: You know, maybe willfully ignorant. What's her name, Carmella Soprano [laughter].
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, willful ignorance is a great way of putting it [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Right.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah. Yeah, as long as the checks keep clearing I'm not going to ask too many questions.
Dave Bittner: That's right. That's right.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Alright, interesting, well we'll have a link to that story in the show notes. Joe? You're up next. What do you got for us?
Joe Carrigan: Well, I am also keeping in line with the Valentine's Day theme. And I have a story about a woman named Heather Rovitt, I hope I'm pronouncing that name right. She's 46 years old, and a real estate broker at the time of the scamming. And there is much more to this story than we can go into, because this is an in-depth story, and I read one article where Heather was like, "I don't care about any shame that I feel about this, I'm going public with this."
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Joe Carrigan: Which I think is great.
Maria Varmazis: Scorched earth, good for you Heather [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: She's not just going public, but there's also an Amazon documentary that's done.
Dave Bittner: Oh!
Joe Carrigan: That she has been part of, here, so there's links to that in the article. So if you go to the show notes, you can find-go to the show notes, click on the article, the link to the Amazon Prime video documentary. Two parts. I haven't watched it yet, but I think I'm going to try to watch it. So anyway, one day Heather needs some cabinets fixed. So she calls her handyman service, thinking they're going to send over the same guy they sent last time.
Dave Bittner: Mm-hm.
Joe Carrigan: But when she opens the door, she finds this charming man in his forties, and he has salt-and-pepper hair, and a really nice smile.
Maria Varmazis: Oh, he's kind of rugged looking, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, if you look at the picture, this is, I look at this-
Maria Varmazis: He's got dreamboat eyes, I'm not going to lie. That guy-I could see. I could see it.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, yeah. I-this is not a scam I could ever hope to pull off. [ Laughter ]
Maria Varmazis: You're at least self-aware, Joe, good on you [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: Yep. Okay, where's the cabinet you need fixed [laughter]. Over there-fix it and get out.
Maria Varmazis: Sir, please leave, sir. Please leave-
Dave Bittner: Sir, do you not own a belt, sir?
Joe Carrigan: I do, it just doesn't work [laughter]. I have to war-uh, never mind [laughter]. I have a nice pair of suspenders for when I'm doing work around the house.
Maria Varmazis: Oh! Nothing more rugged than suspenders, Joe.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Especially the ones that hook to a belt? Yeah, that's just-the lowest form of [snickers, laughter]-way to keep your pants up, but it's all in that it works. Um-so, the guy introduces himself, his name is Jace Peretti-right?
Dave Bittner: Oh, that's Jace!
Joe Carrigan: Jace, right. Right.
Maria Varmazis: Jace!
Joe Carrigan: Right, that's a fake name. His real name is actually Jason Porter, and they chat, it's nice, and then Heather says, after he leaves, Heather says, "Hey, I need a towel rack fixed," so she calls Jace back. And this time, she says "Why don't we go do lunch?" Of course, Jace says "Okay!" And then, that leads to some texting, and they eventually-a proper date.
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Joe Carrigan: And within a few months of dating, Jace goes and meets Heather's parents. So, this is now-
Maria Varmazis: Girl! You in danger girl [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: Right, but she doesn't know that-I mean, from our perspective--
Maria Varmazis: Oh my god! Does she not have any girlfriends?
Joe Carrigan: She does, and one of them tries to help her out later.
Maria Varmazis: Okay, I was like, ladies, what are we doing here? Your friend does something like that, you take her aside immediately. Okay, anyway, sorry.
Joe Carrigan: After that, a few months later, Jace gets a key to her condo, and he finds, winds up spending the majority of his time there and Heather says, "Well, he was a night owl, and he said he'd picked up a new software job, where he was working on his computer late into the night. So, Heather went to bed before him.
Maria Varmazis: Oh, no, he's a hobosexual [laughs]-
Joe Carrigan: A what?
Maria Varmazis: Hobo-sexual.
Joe Carrigan: Hobo-sexual [Dave laughs]. What's a hobo-sexual?
Maria Varmazis: Uh, basically a guy who is just going to-just mooch off you.
Joe Carrigan: Oh, okay. Okay [Dave laughing]-
Maria Varmazis: Sorry, I learned that one on Reddit the other day, and I'm like, that's such a great, great term for it.
Joe Carrigan: Yes, that's a good one-it's good. In the music industry, we call them guitar players.
Maria Varmazis: Uh [laughter]-
Dave Bittner: Yeah, drummer jokes are-you know, how do you know a drummer is homeless? He doesn't have a girlfriend.
Joe Carrigan: Right [laughter] that was the same with guitar players [Maria spitting]- We all say, well what do you call a person who hangs out with musicians? A drummer.
Dave Bittner: Drummer, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: But my drummer would say what do you call a guy that can't play guitar-bass player [laughter], that's what I was.
Dave Bittner: Yeah. Alright!
Joe Carrigan: Anyway! After awhile, things start going missing, right? Like, just random things around the house, like an iPhone that Jace bought for Heather, and Jace then blames the building Concierge, and nearly gets her fired. Then a friend's Rolex vanished on a cottage weekend. I don't know, this is written in "The Sun," which is a UK paper, so I don't know what Cottage Weekend means, but I guess it's just a getaway, where you go to an air B and B or something?
Dave Bittner: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Her parents mysteriously lost $750 in cash, or it says pounds here, but it's Canadian dollars, probably, I don't know what that is in Canadian dollars. A Tiffany necklace, a gold and diamond wedding band, and a diamond engagement ring.
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Joe Carrigan: Those things just go missing from her parents' house. On two occasions, Jace also backed out, last minute, of two different trips, with two different excuses. One was, "Oh, I don't have my passport anymore, it's expired, I can't go to the Dominican Republic," and one was a trip that Jace had actually planned. He bought tickets-the tickets were of course fake-but he said, right before it was time to go to Rome, this was going to Italy, "Oh, I've got to go to court for a custody thing with my son, with my girlfriend that has my son." And, eventually, a friend, this is where the friend comes in, she tells Heather, "Hey, I found Jace on Bumble," which is a dating app, I guess?
Maria Varmazis: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Joe Carrigan: But Jace convinces Heather that this is all a bunch of BS, because he of course lies his way out of it. So, at this point, they've been dating for a long time, and then in the summer of 2021, it wasn't so much the money that Heather says bothered her, but he became-she became more concern with his sudden shift in demeanor, like, he didn't want to go to any of the events that she was hosting, and then one Memorial Day, or Labor Day weekend, Jace disappears and Heather gets access to his email account, and when she gets into the email account, she finds out Jace is all over all kinds of dating apps. E-Harmony, Match, Plenty of Fish, and Bumble, and he says, she says that he is talking with hundreds of women. Not one or two-hundreds.
Dave Bittner: Hm!
Maria Varmazis: How does he have time for that?
Joe Carrigan: Well, that's what he does at night [Dave laughs], he's not developing software-
Maria Varmazis: But still! That's-a lot of work!
Joe Carrigan: It is.
Maria Varmazis: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: And, of course, this is one of my favorite parts of the story. Jace is using the names like Jace-Don, Donado, Don-Donado, I look at that as like Don-ado, like "I'm the Don-Ado,"
Maria Varmazis: Donatello.
Dave Bittner: [Laughs] Yeah, you've heard the tornado, this is the Don-Nado.
Joe Carrigan: I'm the Don-Nado!
Dave Bittner: [Deep voiced] Brace yourself!
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: [Deep voiced] Here I come!
Joe Carrigan: Watch out [laughter]. And, of course, the ever-present Mike.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: I don't know-
Dave Bittner: How many years in are we? At this point?
Joe Carrigan: It's like three years.
Maria Varmazis: Wow.
Joe Carrigan: Into this. So she finds this off, she breaks it off with him, the police say there's nothing illegal about talking to women online. Sorry, if you don't feel safe, you should leave. So she does leave. She moves back to her parents' house. Then she gets a call from-because she had since moved from the first apartment, and now they're in another house. And the landlord is like, "Hey, Jace isn't paying his rent. I'm going to evict him." And she's like, "That's fine with me!" So then, she goes in there, and she finds all kinds of documentation like she finds bills of sale for the stuff that was missing from her parents' house. And then all told, it looks like she lost around $150,000 pounds, which is probably close to $200,000 in American money, and probably even more than that in Canadian money. But it's-I can't say I would be happy with losing $150,000! [ Laughter ]
Dave Bittner: You think [laughing]?
Joe Carrigan: It would affect me-greatly. So I don't want to say this is not, this is not as bad as we hear. Like Maria's story had someone losing three million dollars.
Dave Bittner: Joe, I've seen you misplace your glasses-
Joe Carrigan: Yes!
Dave Bittner: And go apoplectic [all laughing].
Joe Carrigan: You should have seen me yesterday when I was working on my car, and I couldn't find the tire gauge, I was like-I just had it!
Dave Bittner: Right, was it in your hand [laughs]?
Joe Carrigan: It was in my pocket.
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Okay there you go.
Maria Varmazis: Not in your backpack?
Joe Carrigan: No [Dave laughing]-No. It's a tool. It has got a specific place.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, uh, I mean, it's sad-and I guess all too common. I also feel really bad for her parents.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah!
Dave Bittner: Because the violation of the parents' trust, you know, this ne'er-do-well boyfriend who comes in and stuff starts disappearing.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah. There's a lot more to this story, I mean, I would encourage listeners to go and read the story. There's much more to it than I can cover here. But it's a good story, and I really want to watch this documentary now.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, same here, I'm going to have to find a way to get to it, because I don't have Amazon Prime anymore. Yo-ho-ho [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: You mean you have friends that have Amazon Prime-
Maria Varmazis: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah-yep, me and Bezos, we're buddies [smirks].
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Uh, so, Maria at the outset of this, you were lamenting that this woman's girlfriends weren't having a more active part in her [Maria sighing] defense here-can you, flesh that out for us?
Maria Varmazis: I-um, I-some of that was out of [laughing], I'm just thinking back to my-uh this, okay. I'm going to organize my thoughts on this one. This was not terribly uncommon for people I knew in our 20s. However, she's 46.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: I don't know, in my 20s, when I had friends that had situations like this, where it wasn't necessarily a scammer, but things moved way too fast. There was an element of maybe that's normal, I don't really know? By 46, you definitely have enough life experience, so, I don't know. I think that's a-girlfriends need to sit down with you and go, this is moving a little fast honey [laughs]. Let's just like-are you sure about this? But of course, if she goes yeah, he's great, he's fine, I promise you he's great, you know? What are you going to do.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, it didn't move like, romance scam level fast. It moved-
Maria Varmazis: Still pretty fast.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I mean, three months, three or four months he's in, he's living with her, yeah, that's pretty fast.
Maria Varmazis: With a key to her condo?
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Maria Varmazis: I don't know, I mean, I'm not saying like that's unheard of, but it's just-it's a little fast. To me. To me. So, I don't know. I don't know [laughter] that would raise some eyebrows for me. I would be, are you sure? Is he alright? He's on the up and up? He's got a job, you're sure about that [laughing].
Dave Bittner: Right. Yeah, yeah. Especially the kind of-I mean he moved--
Maria Varmazis: How did you meet this guy? He showed up at your house?
Dave Bittner: Yeah, and he's staying with you, have you ever been to his house?
Maria Varmazis: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Where does he live?
Maria Varmazis: Have you met his friends? Like is he legit? Yeah, there's all sorts of-mm. Yeah. Especially at this age, like, there's got to be more to it.
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Maria Varmazis: He just shows up out of the blue, and now he's moved in with you, and you haven't met anyone on his side of things, and you haven't seen him actually go to a job? I just don't know. Too many red flags.
Joe Carrigan: I mean, well, she did see him go to a job, he fixed the cabinets in her house.
Maria Varmazis: Well, then I'm a handyman, too [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: My red flag would have been-
Maria Varmazis: Find me on Task Rabbit [laughter], it's official. Like, jeez!
Joe Carrigan: My red flag would have been when he says oh, I got a software job. I'm like-software job? For a handyman? I mean-
Maria Varmazis: Yep.
Joe Carrigan: Have you-
Maria Varmazis: Just open up Notepad, plus-plus, and [laughing] I'm a software engineer! Wheee [laughing].
Dave Bittner: I also wonder, could he be-you know, if you think about him being a predator, which you know, seems as though he is.
Joe Carrigan: He seems-allegedly.
Maria Varmazis: Clearly.
Dave Bittner: But-if he is involved with hundreds of women, he chose to live with her. Which makes me wonder, like, what was it about her, we talk about, you know, why didn't her girlfriends help her? Maybe he sensed something in her, that she didn't have the support network that was going to--
Joe Carrigan: Ah, yeah!
Maria Varmazis: Oh yeah. Isolated.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, and he said, "Ah-ha! I got one!" and this is the one I'm going to live with [laughs], right?
Maria Varmazis: I'm just imagining in my weekly catch-ups with my friends, if one of them told me, hey, this guy who showed up at my house fixing my cabinets, three months later is now sleeping on my couch, he has moved in with me, I would be going-this is not a tap the brakes situation, this is a red alert.
Joe Carrigan: Right [Laughter].
Maria Varmazis: So, what is going on there. So yeah, you're right, she probably was isolated, so that makes her a perfect victim, sadly.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Mm-hm.
Maria Varmazis: Aw.
Dave Bittner: Alright, well, we will have a link to this story in the show notes, and once again, we would love to hear from you if there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, you can emails us, at hackinghumans@n2k.com. We're going to take a quick break. We will be right back after this message from our show sponsor. [ Music ] And we are back! I have a special treat for us here, this week, rather than a story, I actually have an interview, again, with our Valentine's Day timing here [laughs], we thought it would be nice to talk to Simon Horswell, who is a Senior Fraud Specialist, at a company called Entrust. He has more than 20 years of experience in fraud investigations and document examination. He has supported law enforcement with their work. But lately, he's been tracking this surge in romance and confidence scams. So I thought it would be a perfect person to talk to. Here is my conversation with Simon Horswell. [ Silence ] So today, we are talking about romance scams. Being that it is right around Valentine's Day. I would love to start off with some high-level stuff here. My understanding is that romance scams go way before we actually had an internet. That this is-as long as people have been in love, there have been people trying to scam each other and use it as a way of doing bad. Is that an accurate perception?
Simon Horswell: Yeah, I think that's fair. As long as people have had the ability to take advantage of one another, then unfortunately, they have.
Dave Bittner: So, what are we seeing here today when it comes to romance scams? What is the current-let's call it state of the art?
Simon Horswell: Yeah, so, what we're seeing now are people reaching out to, well, we see fraudsters reaching out to people via social media platforms. So this could be using dating apps, with a view to getting them off the dating apps, and into private messaging service, or it could be on Instagram, or Facebook, or one of those other social media platforms that are a lot broader, and that can make the trouble-that can make the problem a bit harder to spot because those platforms aren't necessarily geared up to monitor certain patterns of behavior.
Dave Bittner: Can you walk us through the playbook? I mean, how does something like this begin, and what happens as they progress?
Simon Horswell: So initially someone will reach out to you. They're not going to be an ugly person, right? This is going to be someone who is probably like a 10, a 9, somewhere sort of unbelievable, where you're like, "Wow!" and-
Dave Bittner: Someone way out of my league [laughing].
Simon Horswell: Right, where, not you personally, but like clusters of people. Right? These are going to be people like, objectively good looking.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Simon Horswell: They will reach out to you out of the blue, and they'll say hey, look, I'm just stopping by, I saw you like this, or I'm-I saw you were into this, or I just saw your profile, and I thought I just wanted to say hello because you look friendly, right, or you look beautiful. But what will then progress from there is a really intense period of the relationship. So normal relationships progress, you know, various different speeds. But one of the hallmarks of this particular trend, this scam, is that it will go straight up to 100, and it won't lay off the gas. It will be very intense. You will have the most attentive person ever. They will find everything you say amusing. You will have no disagreements, as long as you're not talking about not giving money, let's put it that way. Everything is going to be the best thing they've ever heard, or they're going to think that you are the only thing that they think of all day long, they will not miss a call. They will not miss a message, and they will, yeah, we see this technique called love-bombing. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, love-bombing is when you basically just spam someone with affection. You're constantly telling them how important they are to you, how much you miss them, how you dream of being together, you're sending poems, you're sending stories, you're sending songs, just really intense, over a very short period of time. And this is all to progress and accelerate the relationship to the point where the victim is emotionally invested. And then it's very, very difficult for them to pull away.
Dave Bittner: How much time is there typically between this-this period of time where they're building the relationship, then when the ask comes. For something. For money, for, you know, something out of the ordinary.
Simon Horswell: Well, it can vary. It really can vary. In some cases it can be over a couple of weeks. But in other cases, we have known this to go on for a few years. But with the use of AI now, it is relatively simple. We live these live online, and if you've never met someone in person, it can be very easy to fall into this trap. Some victims have reported the fact that the tone changes when they're talking to this person over a period of years. That's generally not the case, right? If you're talking to a genuine person, they tend to be the same person. But this is, you know, considered to be fraudsters sharing these victims with other people, or if you like, if you think of it in terms of a business, I've got someone who goes out and does the research, initiates the contact, and then they pull them in. Then I give them to somebody else to keep them warm, and then later on down the line, when it's required, I have my closer. So that kind of patent. So this is why it can feel like sometimes you're talking to a different person or the tone change. Likely it is you may have been sold on-your profile, as it were, may have been sold on to somebody else, to go to the next stage. So it can be any period of time. But it does have some hallmarks to it, that you can look out for, that will let you know that you're trapped in this situation.
Dave Bittner: What sorts of things should people be on the lookout for?
Simon Horswell: Well, as I say, this intense period, right at the beginning. This is someone who can never meet you in person, because the person they presented to you doesn't exist. So, lookout for the fact that you can't meet this person in real life. Now, it could be that from the beginning the scenario they've given you is that they work overseas. That they can't be with you in person, otherwise they would. Or, they work all the time. Or they're constantly traveling. Some excuse, that is baked into the scenario from the beginning, which means that seeing them in person is going to be very difficult, and we should just put that to the backburner for the time being. Now, most of the time, you know, you can have a long-distance relationship and it can work. But you're on the assumption that you're eventually going to meet. And if the person on the other end is never going to do that, and has never got that intention, then you're working under false pretenses.
Dave Bittner: Now, my understanding here is that when someone gets drawn into something like this, it's very hard for them to admit that they've been taken. First of all, does that match your research? And I guess the second question is, if you suspect your loved one is involved with something like this, what's the best way to try to break the spell?
Simon Horswell: Yeah, it's very difficult. It's very difficult. Because these are social manipulations. That's how these scams work. They manipulate the individual, the target. Quite often we're seeing people that are, well, they're being targeted based on things that they've put out on social media. So fraudsters now can find out an awful lot about you, build a profile, and then they kind of know what buttons are going to work, for tried and tested means. So it can be very difficult once someone's caught in this. Or the phrase that I'm hearing quite a lot, or the phrase that we're using quite a lot, is breaking the spell. You have banks that are trying to warn people about these payments, saying like, you know, "we-we have seen this before. This is going to be a scam." And again, the fraudsters have got that as part of their script. So they'll be saying like, don't worry, the bank is going to tell you this, but I just need you to put this money in this location, or I need you to buy this amount of crypto. By this time, because of the intensity of the relationship, the attentiveness that they're giving the victim, the fact that they're making it for the victim feel incredibly real, and the dream relationship, the victim is emotionally invested. And it's not a case of not being able to admit it, yeah, it's-they're so emotionally invested, that they can't get away from this. It is everything to them. They are in love. It is very real for them. So the fact that other people are coming along and waving bits of evidence, or you know, trying to pull them away from it, the fraudsters know what they're doing when they are creating this scenario. It's very difficult for loved ones to pull them away. The fraudsters know what the regular objections are going to be, and almost counter-attack them before they happen. So trying to isolate that person more and more from their support network, from their family, from their loved ones, from their friends. Discrediting the warning signs that banks will put up. And a bank can't stop you spending your money. They're not allowed to do that. But it's in their interest to warn you several times.
Dave Bittner: You mention AI, what role does that have in the scams these days? And how much has it accelerated or made it easier for these folks to do the things that they're up to?
Simon Horswell: Yeah, so this has been a problem since we have started living more of our lives online. And that means that we are now used to having conversations with people just through text, for example. And whereas before with some of these scans, the fraudster would have to take a photograph from somewhere else on the Internet, which still happens, but they would have to take a photograph, which would mean that you could potentially take all the images that your romance has, you know, your romantic partner has sent you and you could put them on a search engine to see if they-if and where they popped up elsewhere before. Which may give you some indicators that the relationship is not genuine. It used to be that the fraudster would have to write the pieces themselves. They would have to write the messages, which means that you could use things like spelling and grammar, syntax, you could use all of these as indicators. But now, we have generative AI. We have LLMs. So these will allow people who don't necessarily speak let's say English as a first language, it will allow them to communicate in perfect English, even set a tone, the grammar will be great, the syntax will be great, and you can say, I want to make this playful, so it will have a playful tone to it. It will use playful type words. You can converse quite convincingly without necessarily having the ability to do that yourself, which is what the fraudsters do. And now you've got this generative AI allowing people to create someone from scratch. So an image of someone, or a video of someone. You can use generative AI, so you can use deep fake for example to wear the face of somebody else. So if you have to do a video call, you can wear the face of the AI-generated person that you've created. So that you now appear like them in a video call. You can use generative AI to mimic a voice. So that you can have a more realistic sounding tone that maybe matches the image of the person that you're portraying. So it has made it that much more realistic, and harder to spot. Because gradually it's removing some of the red flags or the characteristics that we would have used to potentially pick this up. It's making the appearance of it that much more realistic.
Dave Bittner: So what are your recommendations, then? I mean, are there consistent ways to successfully inoculate your loved ones against this sort of thing ahead of time?
Simon Horswell: Well, I would say, with all of this, it's like any scam that has ever been perpetrated. It is all about making people aware before it happens. Once someone is ensnared, as we've mentioned, it's very difficult in some cases to convince them otherwise. It depends how invested they are, how far down the track they are. But even sometimes people are presented with the full facts and all of the evidence, and they're still not convinced. So really the best form of defense is awareness. Making sure that people are savvy about this potential pitfall, as early as possible, so that they can avoid falling into this trap. So there are a few things to look out for. As I say, the acceleration of the relationship. The fact it becomes so emotional, so intense, so quick. There is always going to be, you know, whether someone is prepared to have a video call or not, there is going to be an excuse why they can't meet you in person. And then at some stage, and this is the key thing to look out for, there is going to be some form of crisis or event that requires the victim to hand over money, or help out in some way financially. And that's the big thing. And it could be we've seen kind of really protracted ones, where one victim of a romance scam is actually the money mule for the other victims of the same romance scam. So it will be send money to this address, and the person at that address is also involved in the romance scam, they're also a victim, but they think they're helping out, I'm sending, you know, my future husband has asked me if I can forward money for obviously this address, and forward it to that address, because it helps out his business, which he's building for our future.
Dave Bittner: Hm.
Simon Horswell: So it's that request in there that involves money. Whether it's you handing over money. Whether it's you buying crypto. Whether it's you investing in something as well, that's another kind of facet of this, is getting people to invest in fake scams or bitcoin, or buying gift cards, these are the kinds of things to look out for. And you'll find that around that time the intensity of the emotions kinds of drops off, and a lot of the messages are just checking in, and asking where the money is, or have you sent this, or have you purchased that yet. [ Music ]
Dave Bittner: So, I mean, Maria let me start with you. I mean obviously these sorts of scams we talk about every week. But it was really interesting to me how Simon just sort of emphasizes the growth of these, how they're everywhere.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, and we focus on them a lot this time of year, certainly, but I don't really think there is a season necessarily. And we've talked about a lot on the show about even if the victim or victim's friends or family know that they're being scammed, they're so insidious, and people often really want to believe that they're real no matter what. Their self-image sort of hinges on this possibility of it maybe being real. It's very hard to get someone to stop going along with it, even if they're causing themselves harm.
Dave Bittner: Right.
Maria Varmazis: I don't-we often talk about it, and I don't know what the great solution is here, aside from we've just got to keep trying. But it's not great that they're not only more effective than ever, but now with AI in the mix, they're even harder to detect, so people are getting hooked more easily. It's just insidious-
Dave Bittner: [Laughs] Yeah, yeah. Any thoughts, Joe? I mean this thing about psychological coercion and social engineering being such a key part of this--
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, and the AI enablement of this just lets you do it at scale.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Which is something that really this kind of-these kind of scams really needed to be done in person and there was a limit, and now that limit has been pushed.
Dave Bittner: Mm-hm.
Joe Carrigan: Also I've noticed in researching for today's show, that the FBI, all-a lot of branches of the FBI, like different field offices have released guidance on being aware of romance scams on Valentine's Day.
Dave Bittner: Oh.
Joe Carrigan: I think one of the things Maria said was absolutely correct. This is not a seasonal thing. Valentine's Day is just when we pay attention to it. This goes on 365 days a year.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, absolutely. Alright, well again, our thanks to Simon Horswell. He's the Senior Fraud Specialist at Entrust, and we do appreciate him taking the time for us. Joe, Maria [music begins] it is time for our Catch of the Day [soundbite of reeling in fishing line]. [ Music ]
Joe Carrigan: Our Catch of the Day this week comes from the Scam Subreddit. And it is a letter from the U.S. Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Agency.
Maria Varmazis: The DEA!
Joe Carrigan: At least it seems to be.
Dave Bittner: [Laughing] Yeah. So it goes like this. It starts off and it says, "Federal investigation of violations of U.S. Law. This letter is to inform you that you've been identified as a potential witness in a federal investigation being conducted in the Eastern District of New York, concerning felony violations of U.S. Federal law, including, but not limited to, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering, distribution and possession, with intent to distribute controlled substances, misbranded drugs, entry of goods by false statements, and conspiracy, in violation of multiple U.S. statutes. Specifically, investigators have determined that there is evidence establishing that you have either directly or indirectly purchased, via the Internet, counterfeit pharmaceutical and chemical products, form an illegal international drug trafficking organization. This investigation is ongoing, and no final charging decisions have been made. If you would like to provide a statement or speak with an investigator, please share your preferred contact information or phone us at this number. Sincerely, David Oleski, Special Agent in Charge.
Joe Carrigan: Is this-
Maria Varmazis: Wow!
Joe Carrigan: This seems real!
Dave Bittner: [Laughs]
Joe Carrigan: I don't know. This-if this is fake, this would 100% work on me.
Dave Bittner: Really?
Maria Varmazis: It has all these numbers on it, too, you're in violation of 18 USC section blah-blah-blah.
Joe Carrigan: It says they're investigating a crime, and you may have purchased counterfeit goods. This seems like they're looking for Plaintiffs.
Dave Bittner: Yeah. It says you could be a witness.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Well, it is-it is a scam.
Joe Carrigan: It is a scam. Okay.
Dave Bittner: It is a scam.
Joe Carrigan: Well thank you for bringing this to me, because I'm like oh! Interesting [Dave laughs]-totally worked on me.
Dave Bittner: Yeah?
Joe Carrigan: Right through my filters.
Dave Bittner: Okay.
Joe Carrigan: It's well-worded. Interesting. So what's the scam.
Dave Bittner: Well, I mean it's, you know, they're just trying to get you on the phone, on the line, they're trying to get you to call them, and there's any number of scams they can then pull on you.
Joe Carrigan: Okay, so this is just the tip of the spear, as it were.
Dave Bittner: Yeah, I mean it's a law enforcement scam. Same sort of thing, where you get a voicemail message from somebody claiming to be the Sheriff, and you missed jury duty or-
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: It's along those lines. One of the things that caught my eye is that on the letterhead here, allegedly from the DEA, it says it's coming from the Rocky Mountain Field Division in Colorado-
Joe Carrigan: Hmm!
Dave Bittner: But the body of the letter says it's an investigation in the Eastern District of New York.
Joe Carrigan: Yep.
Maria Varmazis: Mm-hm, yeah. I was wondering about that.
Dave Bittner: So that's a possibility, but no, I followed through and chased this one down, and it is, indeed, a scam. They-the folks who researched this actually got in touch with the folks at the Department of Justice, and they're like, yeah, no, that's not us [laughs], that's a scam.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Wow.
Dave Bittner: A pretty good one.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah.
Dave Bittner: Pretty good one.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, that's, I mean, really good. I mean, I just totally-it just knocked all my defenses right down. And what made it look not like a scam to me was that they're not saying we're coming to get you, right?
Dave Bittner: Oh-
Joe Carrigan: It looks to me like hey, specifically investigators have determined there is evidence establishing that you have either directly or indirectly purchased via the Internet counterfeit pharmaceuticals, chemical products from illegal distribution and drug trafficking organizations.
Dave Bittner: Right.
Maria Varmazis: And Joe, you're like yeah, that's plausible.
Dave Bittner: [Laughter] Sounds like me.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, 100% plausible.
Maria Varmazis: It sounds like a thing I would have done!
Dave Bittner: I'm always buying janky drugs online [laughter].
Joe Carrigan: Right. I do get some prescriptions delivered.
Maria Varmazis: See, I would have put it immediately in the trash, because I'm just like-
Dave Bittner: Looking for a deal, yeah.
Maria Varmazis: Yeah, me, I would have been like, yeah, that's not a thing I do, so you know, if they said you know, maybe you've been pirating videos, I go yeah, maybe, I know somebody who might be doing that, but not drugs. Drugs no.
Joe Carrigan: Well, I get my-so my maintenance medication is delivered through a mail order pharmacy.
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: Right?
Dave Bittner: Yeah.
Joe Carrigan: I access that online.
Dave Bittner: Mm-hm.
Joe Carrigan: You know, this is why it would work on me.
Dave Bittner: Right, yeah. It's plausible. If they sent this to you, they would have found someone that this checks enough boxes--
Joe Carrigan: This checks enough boxes that I would have-
Dave Bittner: Fallen for it.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I mean, you heard me. I was on the side that this is oh! Maybe we made a mistake putting this in here [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Yeah, I agree. It's one of the better ones we've seen out there. It's funny, in looking at the responses to this, how many people said just in general, never provide a statement or speak with an investigator unless you have to. Unless you have no other choice.
Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I've heard that advice from lawyers as well.
Dave Bittner: That thing, you know, never talk to the cops-
Joe Carrigan: Right.
Dave Bittner: Because you never know what they're up to. So people had that response, too. I don't know how, you know, how much you need-how breathless a response that is or not. I don't know. But it was interesting to see that came up multiple times in people's responses to this, in the comments of this one, but yeah. Turns out it was actually a scam.
Joe Carrigan: Huh!
Maria Varmazis: Wow!
Dave Bittner: So beware.
Maria Varmazis: Good one.
Joe Carrigan: Well look at that, I guess I look like the idiot this week [Dave laughs], but that's okay-
Dave Bittner: It's your turn [laughing].
Joe Carrigan: You know, it happens. Right? It happens to all of us.
Dave Bittner: That's right.
Maria Varmazis: It does.
Joe Carrigan: Nobody is immune. Even me. I sit here every week talking about somebody getting scammed.
Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah, well you know, I'm about to find out what Bofa means [laughter], so-
Joe Carrigan: Yes you are!
Maria Varmazis: Oh god [laughter], oh my god! [ Music ]
Dave Bittner: And that is our show! We want to thank all of you for listening. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly-changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes, or send an email to hackinghumans@n2k.com. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our Executive Producer is Jennifer Eiben. We're mixed by Elliot Pelsman, and Trey Hester. Peter Kilpe is our Publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.
Joe Carrigan: And I'm Joe Dees Carrigan.
Maria Varmazis: [Laughing] And I'm Maria Varmazis, dang it Joe! No, I'm not doing it [laughing].
Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.
Maria Varmazis: I'm not doing it, Joe [laughing]. [ Music ] [ Tone ]
Dave Bittner: Alright, I'm looking this up now.
Maria Varmazis: Oh, god!
Joe Carrigan: No, no, just Dave, now, now, we're not recording. You can ask me, what is-what is Bofa?
Maria Varmazis: Oh, we're definitely recording this [laughter]. There's no way we're missing this [laughter] are you kidding me?
Dave Bittner: So this is going after the show credits. So, alright, should I ask or should I look it up?
Joe Carrigan: No, you should ask.
Dave Bittner: Alright, Joe-
Joe Carrigan: Yeah?
Dave Bittner: Bofa, what does it mean?
Joe Carrigan: Bofa dees nuts [all laughing]!
Dave Bittner: Are you kidding me?
Joe Carrigan: No!
Dave Bittner: It's that simple?
Maria Varmazis: Request info, man [laughing]. [ All Laughing ] It's middle-school humor at its very best, Dave.
Joe Carrigan: That's why I said I'm Joe Dees Carrigan. I was hoping Maria would go, "I'm Maria Nuts-"
Maria Varmazis: I am not saying it, dude, I'm not saying it [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Maria, you knew this?
Maria Varmazis: Yeah [laughter]. Oh [laughs], what do you think I'm a lady? Come on [laughs].
Dave Bittner: You know, my youngest son got me with the ligma version of this [all laughing]-
Maria Varmazis: What's ligma?
Dave Bittner: Ligma? Yeah-ligma ball-
Maria Varmazis: What's ligma?
Dave Bittner: What's Ligma? Ligma balls!
Maria Varmazis: [Laughing]
Dave Bittner: Oh, okay, you're a teenager, I'll allow it.
Joe Carrigan: My son still tries to get me with these. He's 26 [all laughing].
Maria Varmazis: So when you go back and listen to the part where you're like, I'm enjoying learning about bofa! And you [all laughing] you hear me pissing myself laughing [laughter], you're-
Dave Bittner: Yeah, at the end of the show, I'll experience bofa [laughter]
Maria Varmazis: Bofa dees nuts, there you go [laughter].
Dave Bittner: Oh man, see, and here I thought it was going to be something sophisticated and clever, and-
Maria Varmazis: [Laughter] Nope!
Joe Carrigan: I told you, you'd regret knowing about it or-
Maria Varmazis: I'm very glad you didn't Google it.
Dave Bittner: Smart humor. Alright, I'm going to stop the recording.
