Fraud goes door-to-door.

Dave Bittner: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the "Hacking Humans" podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes, and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is Joe Carrigan. Hey, Joe.

Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave.

Dave Bittner: And our N2K colleague and host of the "T-Minus" space cyber briefing, Maria Varmazis.

Maria Varmazis: Hi, Dave, and hi, Joe.

Dave Bittner: We've got some good stories to share this week. Do we have any follow-up, Joe?

Joe Carrigan: Yes, we do, Dave.

Dave Bittner: Okay.

Joe Carrigan: This came up on one of my phones, actually my work phone, which is an Apple phone. It caught my eye. It's from Arun Vishwanath. He is a technologist writer at Dark Reading, and it talks about -- he says, "the beginning of the end of social engineering." I thought about making this my story today, but it really doesn't lend itself to that. It's an opinion piece. Arun's idea is that because everybody's putting AI into the operating system, that eventually, this will stop people from doing the things that attackers need them to do in order to compromise their machines or get inside of a network. I don't know how I feel about that. First off, the fact that everybody's putting AI into everything, I think even Ubuntu is putting AI into their operating system, I work and live in a sphere, Dave, where people are not really happy with that, you know?

Maria Varmazis: I live in that same sphere, yeah.

Joe Carrigan: Right? You might call it conspiracy theory minded, but I don't think this is a really far reach, like flat earth or anything.

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

Joe Carrigan: You mean big tech companies want to gather more information and process it on their AIs? Big tech companies want to put AI models or systems on our computers and use our computers as their processing, probably for free. Look, if I could eliminate the cost of all these computers and just offload that to the customer --

Dave Bittner: Okay.

Joe Carrigan: So, you know, everybody I've talked to about this is not happy about it. I'm actually seriously considering about changing to some version of Linux that doesn't have built-in AI on it. Anyway, Arun's statement, I think, is -- or at least thought here is -- a good one. Maybe, maybe this will be something that's good to helps people in the long run.

Dave Bittner: So is the notion that the AIs built into your operating systems will, basically, be looking over your shoulder to keep you out of trouble?

Joe Carrigan: Right, exactly.

Dave Bittner: Okay. You know, like, take for example, that CAPTCHA scam, that's not really a CAPTCHA at all. It says, hey, we need to verify you're human. Click here, copy this text, paste it into a command prompt, and we'll authenticate you. If you could pair an AI that reads that and sees you starting to do that, it just goes, hey, wait a minute, don't do that.

Maria Varmazis: There was back in the '90s, there were people clamoring for the idea of having a hand that would come out of the monitor and slap you before you did something stupid, so it sounds like that's actually maybe happening.

Dave Bittner: [Laughter] Just a mild electrical shock in your chair.

Maria Varmazis: Right, just a little slap.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Joe Carrigan: Smack.

Dave Bittner: I like it.

Maria Varmazis: Okay. All right.

Dave Bittner: You know, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it was something you could turn on or off and then also dial in, like, you know, you could on your phone or your computer or your iPad. You know, put it into grandma mode, right?

Joe Carrigan: Right, so it's always on all the time and --

Dave Bittner: Right, right. Yeah, just have different ways of dialing it in depending on -- so that you're not feeling -- if you're someone who's technically capable and feels like you can handle these things on your own, you might dial it down a notch --

Joe Carrigan: Right.

Dave Bittner: -- but you're also protecting people who can't protect themselves or, you know, just are challenged in that way, so it's interesting.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Bittner: So yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Well, we'll have a link to that story in the show notes. It's an interesting approach, I suppose.

Joe Carrigan: Yes.

Dave Bittner: Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and when we come back, we will dive into our stories. [ Music ] We are back. I'm going to kick things off for us here this week. I have a story from Info Security Magazine, and this is a warning that came from the FBI. They're saying that the FBI is warning that courier cash pickups are fueling cryptocurrency investment scams. We have talked about how the banks, the stores, the places that sell gift cards, the bank tellers are getting more and more educated and are getting in the middle of these transactions when people are in the middle of a scam, and that's all good, but of course, the bad guys are pivoting because of that. They're saying that the -- the FBI is saying that the cryptocurrency scammers are using cash couriers to collect money from the victims. Rather than having you go to a bank or your transfer money through something like that, they'll have someone come and pick up cash in person.

Maria Varmazis: Oh.

Dave Bittner: That avoids the scrutiny that an electronic transaction gets. So how does this work? Well, it starts off as any sort of these types of scams. The person's persuaded to invest money through a fraudulent cryptocurrency investment platform. Maybe there's a romance scam angle to it where the scammer shows affection toward the person. The victim will attempt to invest more funds or withdraw their profits. Then the scammers will say that additional investments are required or that there's some taxes or penalties or fines that have to be paid before any withdrawals can be processed. Then they'll tell the victim that their account has been flagged, which makes normal bank transfers impossible.

Maria Varmazis: Okay. The good old "flagged."

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, oh, hey, what does that mean? It makes no sense to me.

Maria Varmazis: By whom? For what?

Dave Bittner: They have you this far along, I guess, so they're assuming that you're trusting them.

Joe Carrigan: Right.

Dave Bittner: So instead of wiring money, the victim is instructed to withdraw cash and then give it to a courier when the courier comes. They'll do some kind of -- the scammers will do some kind of system with, like, a password with the courier and you, the victim. When the courier comes, the courier will say, "What's the password?" Or you'll ask the courier, "What's the password?" They'll tell you the password. You give them the cash. They say this creates a false sense of legitimacy and trust --

Joe Carrigan: Right.

Dave Bittner: -- but then after you hand off the cash, the victim will see what appears to be an increase in their cryptocurrency holdings or their account balance on the fake investment platform.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, that's easy enough to do.

Maria Varmazis: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.

Dave Bittner: Right? Of course, the balances don't mean anything.

Joe Carrigan: Right. They're meaningless numbers.

Dave Bittner: Right, but they are designed to --

Maria Varmazis: Make more money than normal, yes.

Dave Bittner: Yeah, they're just encouraged to -- they're designed to encourage additional investments. When the victim tries to withdraw their profits, again, the scammers claim further taxes or fees or penalties, and they say additional cash pickups are arranged, rinse and repeat.

Joe Carrigan: Right. Right.

Maria Varmazis: I could see this, because a lot of people, frankly, don't understand how crypto anything works because it's not the same as, you know, sort of standard money stuff. I remember when I dipped my toes in it a few years ago, it was just a totally different world, so it's -- I could see people just going, I don't get it. This must be one of those crypto things, do it must be legit.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, if you don't know anything about cryptocurrency and you get all of your information, 100% of your information, from a scammer and --

Maria Varmazis: How would you know?

Joe Carrigan: -- and you believe it -- yeah, how would you know?

Maria Varmazis: How would you know?

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, right. I mean, because --

Maria Varmazis: Many reasons.

Joe Carrigan: Right? No, because I'm sure there are people out there that go, "What's the difference between that and somebody who starts some kind of blockchain cryptocurrency?" Right? He's going to just speak a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me. I'm not going to get it.

Maria Varmazis: I mean, same goes for regular money for a lot of us, to be honest. The moment you start scratching the surface, it's, like, I don't get it. I don't understand this. Okay.

Joe Carrigan: Right. That's why I pay people to figure this out for me because I don't get it.

Dave Bittner: Am I going to be able to retire someday? Okay. That's what I need to know.

Maria Varmazis: The computer says no.

Dave Bittner: Oh, okay. The normal scam information applies here. The scammers make initial contact through things like social media platforms, maybe through unsolicited text messages, fake cryptocurrency experts, or investment advisors. They'll appear to be wealthy, successful, knowledgeable, all of those kinds of things that -- you know, those are tales as old as time. We mentioned that there might be a romance scam element to this. Then according to the FBI, they had some stats here. They said nearly 73,000 investment fraud complaints were reported last year, and victims lost more than $8.6 billion.

Joe Carrigan: That is a lot of money per per unit there.

Dave Bittner: Yeah, so the FBI has some tips here. They say, protect your personal information, never share banking details with anyone you don't know, be wary of unsolicited contacts, verify identities independently -- we talk about that all the time. Never trust someone saying they are who they are or never call a phone number that they give you for your bank or anywhere you'd be exchanging money. Watch for love bombing. This is when they overwhelm you with affection and short circuit your rational thinking by making you feel loved. They say, avoid suspicious links and pop-ups, research before investing, and hopefully, you'll be able to protect yourself.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, if you don't know how cryptocurrency works, there are plenty of places online that will show you. Don't listen to some scammer or your boyfriend who's fake probably. "Man, I'm making bank and crypto."

Dave Bittner: Right.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, an ad on social media, also, you're probably not going to -- yeah, I made a ton of money on crypto ads. I see them all the time. Yeah, I mean, again, how would you know? It all just seems like it's -- it's got that same veneer of "trustworthy-ish."

Joe Carrigan: Right.

Maria Varmazis: Because even the most up-and-up crypto stuff to me doesn't really always pass the sniff test, but it's technically legit. I don't know.

Dave Bittner: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Would you guys agree with the notion that if the word "crypto" is involved in any kind of investment plan or scheme, that it shouldn't be any money that you can't afford to lose a hundred percent of?

Maria Varmazis: I'd say that for any money of any type, money in general, of any kind, yeah.

Joe Carrigan: My statement is if you can't afford to walk out into the street and set that money on fire, don't put it into crypto.

Dave Bittner: [Laughter] Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Well, we will have a link to that story in the show notes. Maria, you're up next. What do you got for us?

Maria Varmazis: Oh, this is a really interesting article that was in Time Magazine. The headline was, "A Rock Band Went Viral. Then AI Scammers Moved In." This is by Andrew Chow. Fun fact: At the beginning of my journalism career, I actually started off as a music journalist, so I would hang out with rock bands and stuff in my early 20s. It was a lot of fun.

Dave Bittner: So did Joe.

Joe Carrigan: Yes.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, that's why we're best friends. Right.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Joe Carrigan: Who's the biggest band you hung out with?

Maria Varmazis: Oh, nobody you would have heard of. Yeah, because they were predominantly Japanese.

Joe Carrigan: Oh, okay. Nope.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, so I doubt you would know them.

Joe Carrigan: Unless it's baby metal, I don't know who they are.

Maria Varmazis: Baby metal didn't exist yet when I was --

Joe Carrigan: What about Loudness? I do remember Loudness.

Maria Varmazis: Loudness is a great band. I never got to hang with them, though, but they're a great band. No, that -- I actually knew a roadie for Loudness, though.

Dave Bittner: Really?

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, anyway --

Dave Bittner: Joe, how about you? What was the biggest band you got to hang out with?

Joe Carrigan: Metallica.

Dave Bittner: Oh, okay.

Maria Varmazis: Metallica, okay.

Joe Carrigan: I only got to hang out with Jason Newsted. He was the only one cool enough to talk to us. The rest of them were kind of jerks.

Maria Varmazis: That is awesome. Well, for anyone listening who knows who this group is, I actually worked for X Japan, and that was part of my claim to fame for a little bit, and you can Google them and find out what they mean later. Anyway, I was very interested in this story because of my -- those years way behind me. This was about an indie band that made it big recently. They are the Nashville-based rock band called Sons of Legions. Have either of you heard of these guys?

Dave Bittner: No. It sounds like a rock band name.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, it sure does, and admittedly -- I just want to just be on the up and up, their music is not my cup of tea. I'm not saying they're bad. That's not what I'm saying. It's just not, like, the type of music I listen to, but they got, recently, very popular.

Joe Carrigan: I think I may have heard of these -- look them up and look at their logo.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, look them up. It might be your cup of tea. I have absolutely no idea. They went from, apparently, 12,000 followers on Facebook in just last year, January 2025 to 2.3 million today. That is a massive blow up, like the kind that most indie musicians, literally, dream of from time of childhood. I mean, that is an incredible success, and as a result of their newfound popularity, they actually have embarked on a 50-city sold-out tour and opened for Jelly Roll, if you've heard of him. I grabbed this little description from their website, "Their music featuring standout tracks like 'Brand New Day, 'Power,' and 'Firestarter' has garnered over 55 million streams and is featured on major platforms like ESPN, Dodge Ram commercials, Netflix, and NBC," so there you go. Like, they've made it big. Congratulations to them. That's awesome.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, that's good.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, I love it. That's a great success story, and Sons of Legions says that it is being totally overwhelmed by AI-powered impersonation scams that are targeting their fans. That's not their fault. This is a huge bummer, and this is an incredible case study. I'm really pleased that Time Magazine is surfacing this because I was fascinated beginning to end. Andrew Chow interviewed a number of the band members, including their lead singer. The band said that they estimate 50 to 60 new fake fan accounts or fake groups for Sons of Legions appear every day, predominantly on Facebook. You could have seen that one coming probably, but also on other platforms, and the lead singer -- his name is Adam, Adam McInnis -- he actually sent a screen cap of all of these fake groups on Facebook that they're just dealing with all the time. A lot of them have at least 10,000 members with over 40 posts a day in them, and this list is just insane. It just apparently keeps going every day, and a lot of them are, like, buy-and-sell groups for tickets. Again, they're in the middle of a tour right now, so this is a huge problem. The scammers are creating these fake groups, fake band pages, and also fake profiles that are pretending to be, predominantly, the lead singer, Adam McInnis, as well as the other band members. Then, as you might imagine, as often happens with scams like this, which predominantly are romance scams, once the fans engage with the fake accounts, the scammers are then urging them to move conversations somewhere more private where they can be alone, like Telegram, Signal, or Zangi. I actually don't know Zangi, but there you go. It's another platform. Then the AI angle for this, as we've talked about for many other types of similar scams is, the scams are using AI-generated voice messages, photos, and videos that closely resemble the real musicians. Apparently, one of the examples I was reading about was in a romance scam lore, they actually generated videos of the lead singer coming out of the shower and sending this to people, just crazy. Then Adam McInnis, the lead singer, was saying that some of the AI-generated content is so convincing that even he's startled by how realistic it looks. He's wondering, did I actually take that video? Maybe I just forgot in the frenzy of getting ready for a tour. As I mentioned a little earlier, as you can imagine for something like this, the goal is usually romance fraud. The victims of these scams are led to believe that they're in a personal relationship with a band member, again, usually the lead singer. After the scammers build the trust with the unsuspecting victim, the scammers will ask for money, often claiming that they need help with tour expenses -- tours are expensive -- medical bills or other emergencies. Then, of course, the payments are requested as crypto. If the victim does become wise to it, it's going to be really hard to get that money back, if not impossible. There's more to this, which is, like -- the story keeps going. Scammers are not just doing romance scams in this case. They're also selling fake merch, fake concert tickets, fake VIP memberships and backstage passes. The band has said many times, at the concerts and the tours that they're doing, fans show up with their counterfeit credentials being, like, yeah, let me in. I bought my backstage pass, and the staff gets to be the bearers of bad news that all that stuff is not legit. Then even worse, band members say that they regularly meet fans at their concerts who genuinely believe that they were dating lead singer Adam online. One victim apparently reportedly left a 40-year marriage and sent roughly $50,000 to a scammer that was impersonating Adam. In other cases, other victims have sent intimate photos in reply to intimate AI-generated videos of the band members.

Joe Carrigan: This guy's like a Keanu Reeves.

Maria Varmazis: Yes, well, here, let's get to that, though. Then those intimate photos are then later used in sextortion.

Joe Carrigan: Ugh.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, yeah, so -- okay. You mentioned Keanu Reeves, and this is what was very interesting to me about this story, because my mental paradigm was that these kinds of scams were for the big leagues like Keanu and Tay-Tay or whoever, and I mean no offense to these guys. I hadn't heard of them, but 2.3 million fans is a lot, but it's not like, you know, bajillions like Taylor Swift. I didn't think that AI scammers would bother going after groups -- you know, smaller groups like these guys, but there's two particular reasons in this article that, apparently, this type of scam is so effective. Firstly, this band, unfortunately/fortunately, their fan base does tend to skew a little older. So, sorry, they're more primed for romance scams.

Joe Carrigan: Right, yeah.

Maria Varmazis: I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but it's true. The second reason is actually because they are an indie band, they're not part of some major record label. They're basically going on their own. They have a manager, but otherwise, they're doing a lot of self-publishing, and they're not alone. A lot of creators are trying to go this way nowadays. So a lot of crowdfunding, think of like Patreon or Kickstarter, those kinds of things. So in that kind of situation, when you're indie like that, it is not at all unusual for you to go directly to your fans and go, hey, we fell on hard times. I actually -- if you wouldn't mind buying some of my merch, I'd appreciate it, or, you know, could you front us some money for this new initiative so we can record a new album? That's not a weird thing anymore at all, so if a scammer is then going to the fans and making a request like, hey, we're in dire straits right now, it's not going to set off any alarms. It's not a red flag at all because the groups are legitimately also doing stuff like that all the time. Like, if Taylor Swift did it, you'd be like, yeah, why is Taylor Swift asking me for money? But an indie band, like, that's a totally legit thing that happens.

Dave Bittner: Yeah, the tour bus got a flat tire, and we're stuck in Alabama.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, honestly, I was just thinking recently, there was a performer who got in, like, a catastrophic bus accident where, like, the entire band, basically, got sent to the hospital, and they needed help paying for their hospital fees. That's America for you, and it's like, yeah, this is a legit thing, but I remember when that ask went out, I had to really research to make sure, was this legit or is this a scam? It was legit, but yeah, the bigger story here is of what AI is doing to what we have sort of covered as more traditional celebrity impersonation scams. The scammers can now generate realistic voice notes, videos, and conversations at scale, so it's not a threat for only the biggest names now. The scam works because the fans already feel a really strong emotional connection to these indie artists. It feels more one-on-one. You can have those conversations with the lead singer or, like, they will interact on their fan pages. It's, like, it's part of the appeal of getting to know an indie group. That's the fun of it.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Maria Varmazis: Again, since these scams can happen at scale, indie creators of all kinds who are sort of in that sweet spot of having some recognition and an engaged fan base, and also, will make a direct request of their supporters, they're actually especially vulnerable to be targeted by a scam like this now. The kicker to me is because these guys are indie or independent, they also generally don't have the resources or the time to be fighting scams like this. Like, they're trying to stay afloat, so in this case, Sons of Legions, they actually did have to pay for a deep-fake protection and takedown service, which I'm sure was the last thing they needed. That money would have gone way further on a lot of other things. I'm sure the list is a mile long, but they had to pay for a service like this, which really stinks. I've kind of spoken a lot, but I'll just get to the takeaway real quick here. Even with your indie groups, you should always be skeptical of unsolicited messages. These guys are not Taylor Swift and that's great, but it doesn't mean that they can't also be getting hit by AI impersonation scams. As we've talked about a lot on this show, any time someone says, "Let's take this to a second location," as Joe, as you often say, never trust that. As soon as they say, let's get off of Facebook and let's talk on Telegram instead, or any other encrypted messaging app, that is the hugest of huge red flags. Any requests for any kind of money in any type, whether it's crypto or regular money, gift cards, or financial assistance, like, always do your due diligence. Don't just hand that money over. Really, really be skeptical before you part with your money, and if anyone, indie or famous or in between, is contacting you personally, privately, and asking for money, you are almost certainly talking to a scammer. So yeah, none of this conversation should ever be happening behind closed doors. The bands, if they need the money or support, it should be a public post that they're making so everyone can see it, as opposed to a one-on-one, because that's just not how it's done, so there you go. I was super fascinated by this story.

Dave Bittner: I wonder if they get a better hit rate by going after fans of an indie band like this.

Maria Varmazis: Oh, most certainly, yeah.

Dave Bittner: In other words, because it's more plausible, right? It's much more plausible that this indie band guy who's on the way up is going to be more interested in just a regular fan than, you know, like you said, a Taylor Swift.

Joe Carrigan: A Taylor Swift, yeah.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, and I think when you hang around groups like this -- I don't do this anymore; I'm too old -- but I remember in my 20s, especially, there were always sort of cultural touchstones of everybody has heard of a fan or heard of a fan of a fan of a friend who was totally besties with the lead singer, and she helped him out or something. You hear these, sort of, wacky stories, so it sort of feels plausible that, you know, he saw you from the stage, and he realizes that you're just his number one fan. That's why he reached out to you specifically. It's a classic thing, and I've heard so many flavors of this in my life, but it just feels like a really old trope that's kind of gotten this terrible new update. You know, he saw you from across the crowded room, but with an AI scammer twist.

Dave Bittner: The fact that he was a rock and roller in his 30s and you're a 70-year-old woman --

Maria Varmazis: It doesn't matter.

Dave Bittner: The heart wants what the heart wants.

Maria Varmazis: The heart wants -- that's right. [ Laughter ] Yep, absolutely.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, I'll tell you, there's a band, a local band from around here, that we follow and we go see from time to time, and they stick around after the show. You go talk to them, and they're great. They're wonderful. They're called Carbon Leaf. They're awesome. I mean, you will not find more talent in one group of five guys anywhere else. You know, they've produced so much music that's just amazing to listen to, but we've been there. We've gone to these shows, and every time we go to the show, we stay for the meet-and-greet. We meet them and we say, hey.

Maria Varmazis: Right, and you hear in the crowd, I'm sure, like, some really wacky things that people believe. I mean, I don't know about you, but I always overhear conversations or I'm going, really? You really think that that's real? It's kind of wild. So yeah, it's just kind of amazing that AI scammers have decided to add accelerant to that.

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

Maria Varmazis: Crazy.

Dave Bittner: All right. Well, we will have a story -- we will have a story to that link? We will have a link to that story in our show notes. Let's take another quick break to hear from our show sponsors. We'll be right back after this message. [ Music ] We are back. Joe, what do you got for us this week?

Joe Carrigan: I've got two because they're short -- actually three, but two of them are from the same source and they're talking about the same thing. First, before get to that, let's get to Reuters story about HSBC. Are you familiar with HSBC?

Dave Bittner: Go on, yes.

Joe Carrigan: A worldwide banking conglomerate.

Dave Bittner: Oh, okay.

Maria Varmazis: Yes.

Joe Carrigan: Their Australia unit is going to pay $24.6 million in fines over scam protection failures. This is from the -- they were sued in Australian court for failing to maintain adequate controls over internal transfer systems between May 2023 and May 2024. This is, like, one year, and this is -- the Australian Security and Investment Commission, ASIC, has sued them. They actually have capitulated before going to trial. They said this in an agreement. The bank was also aware that as early as 2021, a growing threat from impersonation scam was coming and they didn't they didn't do anything about it. So HB --

Maria Varmazis: HSBC.

Joe Carrigan: HSBC, thank you. I wanted to read their comment in here. This is this is one of my favorite parts of it. It's from an HSBC spokesperson to Reuters. "We reached an agreement to resolve the proceedings with the ASIC, which recognizes our customer redress program and significant enhancements made to our fraud and scam prevention, detection, and response." There they are again, Dave and Maria, telling us everything is better now that we have closed the barn doors.

Dave Bittner: That's right. That's right.

Joe Carrigan: Those horses won't get out again.

Dave Bittner: Yeah, we're getting new horses.

Joe Carrigan: Right, we're going to have to get new horses.

Dave Bittner: Just like the old horses.

Joe Carrigan: So, you know, good for Australia and the ASIC, good job. I don't know if that's a big enough fine to impact anything. I'd like to know the total number of losses in Australia that were reported, because I'll bet it's larger than that. If they went to court, they may have to just start reimbursing people. Who knows?

Dave Bittner: Yeah.

Joe Carrigan: Any thoughts?

Dave Bittner: Well, hopefully, it puts the other banks on notice.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. I mean --

Dave Bittner: An enforcement regime is in place.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, it's actually 35 million Australian dollars was the was the amount. For some reason, Reuters puts everything in US dollars, probably because that's currently the global currency.

Dave Bittner: That's right.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, so my other two stories come from the Michigan area, in the Grand Rapids area, and these are both coming from WOOD TV. The first one is about a couple busted in Ada Township because they were scamming old people out of money by telling them they're federal agents. It had this couple cash out -- or sorry, $250,000, turn it into gold, and they were asked to hand it over. The report doesn't say if it actually was given to these guys, but the available details indicate that investigators stopped the alleged scam before the quarter of a million dollars was transferred.

Dave Bittner: Wow.

Joe Carrigan: Now, on to my favorite story, and my favorite story of this, if you guys have clicked on this, go down to the mugshot.

Maria Varmazis: Okay.

Joe Carrigan: Just look at the shocked look on this on this guy's face.

Maria Varmazis: Oh, boy.

Dave Bittner: Oh.

Maria Varmazis: Oh, geez.

Dave Bittner: He could be the FBI Director.

Joe Carrigan: Right. [ Laughter ]

Maria Varmazis: Yeah, dead ringer for Kash Patel, yeah.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Joe Carrigan: Yug Chauhan has been arrested because he was trying to scam a 79-year-old Ottawa County woman out of $700,000 in gold. Now, this woman went to an exchange where you can, you know -- like, some vendor that sells physical gold currency and says, "I need to buy $700,000 in gold coins." Immediately this guy goes, "Uh-huh, let me make a phone call."

Dave Bittner: [Laughter] Right? Good for him.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, good for him. He gets the authorities involved, and of course, they find out what's going on. They send an undercover police officer, and she is standing on the corner waiting for this guy to pull up, and he does. She was pretending to be on the phone with the other scammer. She says, "Are you the agent?" and he says, "Yeah." He's wearing a white winter hat and sunglasses, sitting in the car and -- "Do I give him the box then?" she says into the phone. "Is that the code? What's the password?" They're exchanging passwords. "Do I hang onto the box?" The suspect is just sitting there watching. She goes, "I'm supposed to give you this, I think. It's all in there, sir." She says, "Do you want me to give him the box or do you want me to hold on?" She's saying it to the person on the phone. "Okay, Eric." Then she drops the phone and the box, grabs the suspect's arms and pulling them behind his back as several more deputies move out and pull up from unmarked cruisers. I think this is just fantastic.

Dave Bittner: [Laughter] Okay. It's very cinematic.

Joe Carrigan: Right. It's a great story, so another win here as old Yug Chauhan is now in pretty deep. He's charged with two 20-year felonies, which is, you know, he looks like a young man. He probably won't look like that when he gets out. Here's my issue with this. We are looking at the surface of the problem. There is an entire economy under this that operates -- you know, this is essentially gold jewelers who are crooked, and they're looking for ways to source gold with as little cost as possible. They're scamming people out of physical gold, and then they're turning around and selling jewelry to people at impossible prices. "Crazy Dave has lost his mind."

Maria Varmazis: Good old Crazy Dave.

Joe Carrigan: "The manager's out of the office," right, "so we're selling everything at 50% off." I think it's -- you know, again, we're looking at -- you know, I get this because this is exactly what I was talking about early on in the show with Microsoft and Google trying to offload all their computing stuff onto your computer.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Joe Carrigan: Right? If I could turn this where I don't have to pay any overhead, I could turn this into an all-cash business, right, where I just make money hand over fist, and I don't have to pay any expenses. I wouldn't have to buy gold. I can just steal it. Then I can make money.

Dave Bittner: You might be doing something, Joe.

Joe Carrigan: Right, yeah. That's what's going on. It goes down in, I think, Louisiana. We had a story about this years ago. Yeah.

Dave Bittner: Oh, just go to the top. Just go knock on the front door at Fort Knox.

Joe Carrigan: Yeah.

Maria Varmazis: Yeah.

Dave Bittner: "Hey, I'm Joe Carrigan."

Joe Carrigan: I'm here to get my American gold.

Dave Bittner: That's right. I just want to look around a little bit. Don't mind these large pockets on my pants.

Joe Carrigan: Right.

Maria Varmazis: Your JNCOs.

Joe Carrigan: Do you know how heavy one gold bar is? It's so heavy. That is a dense metal. So, you know, that's it. That's it for me. I've just -- two of these in one week, you know, that's a good story.

Dave Bittner: Okay.

Joe Carrigan: I hope they can use these -- the three people they've captured here because in the first story, they busted a couple. I hope they can use these people to get to the next people in line. Where were you going to take the gold? Where was it? What's next?

Dave Bittner: Right, right, and if there are, indeed, dirty shopkeepers who are helping launder the gold, then they're part of it as well.

Joe Carrigan: Gold is remarkably simple to launder. So, I mean, it's one of the reasons they're going this route.

Dave Bittner: It's easy to turn it into other things. It's easily meltable. You can do it at home.

Joe Carrigan: Yes, you can, for very low expense.

Dave Bittner: Right, right. All right. We will have a link to all three of those stories in our show notes. Joe, Maria, it is time for our Catch of the Day. [ SOUNDBITE OF REELING-IN FISHING LINE ] [ Music ]

Joe Carrigan: Dave, our Catch of the Day comes from the scambait subreddit, r/scambait. This is called Eric --

Maria Varmazis: Can we read that title?

Dave Bittner: Just say "B."

Joe Carrigan: B? Oh, oh --

Dave Bittner: When you get to the word, just say "B."

Joe Carrigan: "Failed bait because I'm such a B-word, Part 1."

Dave Bittner: Okay. Maria, I will play the part of Eric.

Maria Varmazis: That's my husband's name, so this won't be weird at all.

Dave Bittner: No, no, not at all. I'll be the one in white, you be the one in blue, and we'll see where this takes us.

Maria Varmazis: Okay.

Dave Bittner: "I have to say, you seem like a very lovely and well-put-together person. I can imagine your husband must really appreciate having you as his wife." >> Maria Varmazis:" He absolutely did when he was around." "So where is he now?"

Maria Varmazis: "Not sure, really. I had him declared legally dead in February. He disappeared while on a fishing trip. His body was never found."

Dave Bittner: "So sorry for your loss. I am a widower with one son. It hurts loosing someone close to your heart."

Maria Varmazis: "I'd just like to know where he is and if he's okay, but I believe in my heart that he's dead."

Dave Bittner: "Yeah, I think he's dead, so how long have you been a widow?"

Maria Varmazis: "Well, that was a bit insensitive of you. I mean, it's okay for me to say it."

Dave Bittner: "But the way you explained it to me, that's why I said so."

Maria Varmazis: "Yeah, but you didn't have to be, like, 'Yeah, he's dead.'"

Dave Bittner: "Okay. I'm sorry if that made you angry. I've been single for almost five years now. You?"

Maria Varmazis: "Since December."

Dave Bittner: "Do you live alone or with your family?"

Maria Varmazis: "Oh gosh, I couldn't imagine being an adult and living with my parents. I have my own home."

Dave Bittner: "Well, I was just asking."

Maria Varmazis: "What is your age?"

Dave Bittner: "Am 60, you?"

Maria Varmazis: "Almost 40."

Dave Bittner: "Your look so young and beautiful."

Maria Varmazis: "I get that a lot. Do you like cheese?"

Dave Bittner: "Yeah, I do. You?"

Maria Varmazis: "Of course. What's your favorite kind of cheese?"

Dave Bittner: "Yeah, I like cheese. I'd say cheddar or mozzarella is my favorite."

Joe Carrigan: This is great, by the way.

Dave Bittner: "What about you?"

Maria Varmazis: "Gorgonzola, but I'm lactose intolerant. Yeah, cheese just makes me lose vowels. What do you do for a living?"

Dave Bittner: "I'm a commercial sailor. I deal on the delivery of heavy-duty generator plants globally, but planning on retiring soon, so I can find a good woman I will spend the rest of my life with. What do you do for a living?"

Maria Varmazis: "I'm a blood spatter analyst with the Essex County Police Department. I go to crime scenes and process the area, collect evidence, and help the department solve violent crimes."

Dave Bittner: "Nice job."

Maria Varmazis: "I see a lot of gruesome [beep]."

Dave Bittner: "So what do you normally do when you're less busy, like your hobbies?"

Maria Varmazis: "Hunting, bowling; I wrap things in clear plastic, kickboxing, drag, breeding snakes, a little bit of this, a little bit of that."

Dave Bittner: "Nice hobbies. My hobbies are swimming, going to beaches, dancing, writing poem, dinner, love animals of all kinds. I'm a pretty good cook, playing golf, walking around, watching TV, and going to church as well. So you have snakes?"

Maria Varmazis: "Yes, I have three. William Snakespear, Reese Slitherspoon, and Julius Squeezer. They're all ball pythons. Do you have any pets?"

Joe Carrigan: Great snake names by the way.

Dave Bittner: "Wow. Don't you ever get scared of them? I don't because of my profession."

Maria Varmazis: "No, I've had them since they were hatched. They were so tiny and cute."

Dave Bittner: "Wow, I would really love to have a view of your snakes."

Maria Varmazis: "I'm gonna have a reptarium built in the lot next to mine and breed them."

Dave Bittner: "So what species do you want to breed?"

Maria Varmazis: "I told you what they were. You can only breed one species."

Dave Bittner: "Okay. I would really love to extend our conversations a lot, but I'm not always online here."

Maria Varmazis: "Yeah, I don't really get much time online either."

Dave Bittner: "I'm always online on Telegram or Teams."

Maria Varmazis: "In my line of work, when there's a crime scene, I often get called out in the middle of the night in all different hours. We have this really peculiar case going on right now, some real sickos out there. We think he's driving around in a stolen ice delivery vehicle. We've nicknamed him the "Ice Truck Killer.'"

Dave Bittner: "So you're on it now?"

Maria Varmazis: "Am I on what?"

Dave Bittner: "Are you on WhatsApp about the crime you're telling me about?"

Maria Varmazis: "Oh, well, no, I'm at home now, but it's an active and ongoing investigation. I can't really talk much more about it, confidentiality and all that."

Dave Bittner: "Okay. Where else do you communicate?"

Maria Varmazis: "Mostly on Facebook Messenger or Telegram. Do you have Facebook?"

Dave Bittner: "Okay. Send me your Telegram username. I'm not on Facebook."

Maria Varmazis: "I don't think we have anything in common. Your interests and hobbies don't align with mine."

Dave Bittner: "That's not a problem. We can just be friends and know more about each other."

Maria Varmazis: "Okay."

Dave Bittner: "So send me your Telegram username so I can send you a text."

Maria Varmazis: "Just send it tomorrow I have plans now."

Dave Bittner: And we'll end it there.

Joe Carrigan: That's pretty good. I like the response that happened when she asked if he likes cheese.

Maria Varmazis: "Do you like cheese?"

Joe Carrigan: "Do you like cheese?" Like, you know, that's -- like, one of my favorite things to think about in this is just, like, obsess about something obscure. You know, pick something you know and just get into, like, all the details of it. Like, maybe you want to talk -- "You know what I really like? I like HO trains. That's my favorite thing." Then just never stop talking about HO trains.

Dave Bittner: Right. Right.

Joe Carrigan: Then when the romance scammer's, like, can we talk -- no, no. That's not HO trains. That's not what I like talking about.

Maria Varmazis: That is not a HO question, yeah, no, absolutely not.

Dave Bittner: So you force them into trying to be romantic and sexy about HO trains.

Joe Carrigan: HO trains, right, yeah.

Dave Bittner: Oh, keep talking about HO trains.

Joe Carrigan: Or if you know a lot about cheese.

Dave Bittner: Right, exactly.

Maria Varmazis: "I like the feta, oppa!"

Dave Bittner: Just a random thing to throw out there and see if it throws them off.

Joe Carrigan: That is one of my favorites. I love it. It's one of my favorite first cheeses.

Maria Varmazis: I'm telling you.

Dave Bittner: All right.

Maria Varmazis: Joe is not a scammer.

Joe Carrigan: No.

Dave Bittner: No. We will have a link to that in our show notes, and we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for our Catch of The Day, please email us. It's hackinghumans@n2k.com. [ Music ] That is our show brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights to keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to hackinghumans@n2k.com. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our Executive Producer is Jennifer Eiben. Were mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Tré Hester. Peter Kilpe is our Publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.

Joe Carrigan: I'm Joe Carrigan.

Maria Varmazis: And I'm Maria Varmazis.

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening. [ Music ] I'm William Snakespear. [Laughter]

Maria Varmazis: We're going to have to go-- [hissing] [ Laughter ]