Leadership & The United States Pacific Command with Ret. Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Welcome to "SpyCast", the official podcast of the International Spy Museum. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Hammond, the museum's historian and curator. Each week we explore some aspect of the past, present, or future of intelligence and espionage. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving us a five-star review. It really helps other listeners find us. Coming up next, on "SpyCast".

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I remember walking over to hand the Iraqi prisoners of war water and food. I remember how I felt, this anger that I felt for them. But as soon as they were humanized and I saw them, I realized, they were men just like me. [ Music ]

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Okay, well thanks ever so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to speaking to you, General Crutchfield.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Oh, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: I'm just thinking a good place to start, your last assignment, Deputy Commander of US Pacific Command, and I had done some research and apparently this is responsible for over 50% of the surface of the planet, so huge job. Can you tell us a little bit more -- tell the listeners a little bit more about US Pacific Command? I mean, it's clearly huge involves lots of very important countries, so big job. It must have been challenging. But I'm hoping [inaudible 00:01:37] --

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): It was. I agree. I tell people when they ask me this question, the best way to describe it and put it in perspective is that if you think about World War II, and you think about General MacArthur, and you think about Nimitz, you know, Nimitz being the Naval leader and MacArthur being the Army leader, ground forces leader in the Pacific, those two people today are one person, only one commander, who commands, as you said, that large area. It's 52%, by the way, 52% of the Earth's surface; yes, yes. [Laughs]

Dr. Andrew Hammond: I think I said over 50 but yes, okay thanks for the -- [Laughs]

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I always tell people, "Hey, it's 50. Don't shortchange me. It's 52%." But probably more important than that, it is the largest combatant command in the Unified Command structure of the United States. The United States breaks down commands in a regional -- a joint and regional basis, you know, the Central Command, the Southern Command, and so forth. Well, the Pacific Command, now Indo-Pacific Command, is the largest of all those Unified Command structures. So that oversees -- if you look at the Indo-Pacific, it is -- starts, you know, at India, the continent, India, comes all the way through Asia Pacific, to include the Southern Pacific nations. It includes Australia, Japan, the Philippines, Thailand, as you said, Vietnam, Guam, and those territories of the United States, all the way to the West Coast of the United States.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Wow. And how much of your bond with China and Taiwan consume in that job? I'm guessing a fair amount of it --

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, I would just -- I would tell you probably 80% of the time that I spent -- me and my commander and the staff spent was on the subject of China, good or bad. And I would say probably another -- the other 20% was spent dealing with the things that were happening out of North Korea.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And would Pacific Command have its own sort of head of intelligence? Is there a specific power of combatant command that deals with intelligence, and who is the head it, and what kind of relationship would you have with them, would you meet with them regularly; or yes just help me understand that, please.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): You know, I think you would agree with this, that every part of the command, whether as a human being or something else, is a collector of information. Everything collects information. But we did have a staff officer, a flag officer, a general or an admiral, who is responsible for packaging that information into intelligence. You know, I would tell the staff, you know, "You can give me lots of pieces of information, but what I need from you is you've got to assimilate that information and turn it into actionable intelligence for the commander and myself." So that was the important thing. And you -- and there were sources all throughout not only the Indo Asia Pacific AOR, but there are sources in other parts of the Unified Command structure and other combatant commands. I talked regularly with the other deputies of the other combatant commands. We shared information. We shared -- the things that were happening in their region, I did the same in my region. So it was a constant sharing of this information and intelligence, not just within the staff of INDOPACOM, but also all the parts of the US government. And you know, again, as I said, everything is a collective. We had several defense attachés in many of these countries. We had security cooperation officers in many of these countries. We had relationships with the military in many of those countries. And the engagements that we had with all those groups and more was regular. It was a regular drumbeat. I oversaw the security cooperation and the defense, attachés fell under me for supervision. And I talked to them regularly. And of all that, Andrew, all those things provided intelligence that was needed to run the command.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And where is the headquarters of Indo-Pacific Command, General Crutchfield?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): It was Hawaii, on Oahu, Hawaii. One other -- you know, here's something that a lot of people don't know. And this is something that I think was a distinct advantage for us. So I told you the US military is broken down into geographic commands, where INDOPACOM is one of those geographic commands. But the Indo-Pacific, INDOPACOM, is the only combatant command which has all its subordinate service commands in -- located in the same place. So the Army Service Command, USARPAC, was in Hawaii, the Navy Command Pac Fleet is in Hawaii, the Air Force Command, and so forth, they're all located -- in fact all the headquarters are very close to each other. No other combatant command is like that. Most of the -- if you look at CENTCOM in Tampa, they don't have the Army, and the Navy, and all the service commands, subordinate commands, collocated. That was a huge advantage for us. Having the collocation with those commanders, and those forces, and those headquarters with us in Hawaii was a marked advantage.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And a lot -- so a lot of the travels that you would be doing would be from Hawaii going out into the Pacific. So it would either be going to some of the major countries that we spoke of, Japan, India, Thailand, Australia, et cetera. But you would also go to -- and this is where I'm going to get lots of envy, you would also get to go to lots of famous places that people might know of from World War II, like Midway, Wick, Tania, and Fiji, all of these types of places. Yes, that must have been completely fascinating.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): It was. I -- gosh, you know, we could fill up this whole hour with that. And I traveled to places that I never dreamed of that many people probably if you ask them where it was, they may not be able to identify it on a map. They would not. A couple of -- just a couple of examples. We did go to Tania. And I had a trip to Tania. I had to go to Guam on several occasions for a project that we were doing, and when we went to Guam normally I would fly to Saipan and I would also, you know, go -- sometimes go to Tania just to look at it. And Andrew, here's something that I just never would have believed, but the famous location where the Enola Gay took off from to drop the atomic bomb, that airfield that's there, until recently -- and certainly when I was there, it was overgrown. I mean it was almost hard to tell that it ever was a runway; overgrown with brush and trees; and like we didn't preserve it. And then more remarkably the actual place where the US forces loaded the atomic bomb into the plane was -- it wasn't even marked. It wasn't -- I was surprised that something that was so dramatic was not preserved the way I thought it was. In fact, if you can picture this, the place where the -- the aircraft sat so low on the ground that the bomb -- they couldn't load the bomb into the bomb bay with the aircraft on the ground. So what they did was they dug a -- kind of like if you've ever been to Jiffy Lube, right, to take your car, you know the little pit that you drive your car over, like Jiffy Lube --

Dr. Andrew Hammond: [Laughs] Yes, yes,

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): -- they would -- they put the bomb in that pit and they drove the plane over top of that, and that's how they loaded it into the plane. Now, that pit is still there.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Wow.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): And there was a glass dome or a plastic Plexiglas dome over it. But it was broken, and cracked, and weathered. And I just -- I couldn't believe the shape that this location was in. Now, I believe -- I haven't been back since then, I believe that's changed. I think we have done a few things on Tania, and I know there are things that we've done to that runway in that area that I think has improved. The other things very quickly, other places I got -- you mentioned a couple of them, some of the places and the beaches where we landed US forces in World War II. I was able to do that. I was able to see on Guam the pillboxes that are still there that the Japanese occupied when we landed on Guam and retook Guam. I was able to go to the National Cemetery in the Philippines where thousands of allied forces, including the Americans are buried on the Philippines. So those things are not lost on me. Those are things that are etched into my mind, and I'll always remember them. And the fact that I was able to experience them is something that is quite remarkable to me.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And just taking a slight pivot to just intelligence on the Pacific Command to just intelligence as a commander; so I'm just wondering if you can tell -- you know, maybe reflect a little about -- a little bit on how you thought about, and used, and consumed intelligence during the course of your long career in the US Army?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): So when I was just starting my career as a young officer as a lieutenant, as an Apache helicopter pilot, the information and the information intelligence that I got and used was more of a tactical -- in a tactical level. And the example I'll give you in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I was 29 years old, I was a brand new captain, and the information or intelligence that I needed to know to fly my unit and my Apaches into Iraq was, "Where is the enemy? Where are the things that can hurt me?" It was a very tactical approach where, "Show me a picture of where they are, tell me the types of weapons that they have that could seriously damage or destroy what I'm trying to do." It was very tactical, right, very tactical in nature; specific pieces of information that are tactical. As I continued in my career and become -- and became more senior, and certainly in the last job that I had, their information is less tactical and more operational or strategic. So what you're looking for then and how you use intelligence then is in a strategic nature. In other words, you still want to know your enemy, you want to know where your enemy is, but more importantly, you want to know the impacts that the enemy will have on what you're trying to do. How can the enemy counter or how can the enemy stop what you're trying to do, and do you have the intelligence and the picture to know when you are successful? How do you know what you did is successful, is effective, and using that information, you decide, "Do I need to do something else, or do I need to do this again?" It's more operational strategic in nature than the actual tactical, "What can shoot me? What can kill me?"

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And just out of interest, during the course of your career, you know, when you're becoming a young officer, and then when you go to the Army War College and so forth, is intelligence a specific standalone topic that's taught, or is it just really rolled up into other things because it's such an intrinsic part of military operations?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, I think it's in everything we do. It is very difficult to separate it from any part of anything else that we do. It's just that important. And I say that because we all -- you know, when we talk about intelligence, we always think about the things that we collect, or the things that we get out of it. It's the things that are coming in, it's the input. I mean, most people that's how you think, right, you think of that. But there are other elements of intelligence that are just as important. There is the element of counterintelligence, in other words, you doing something to someone, or you influence the behavior of some organization or adversary for your purposes. Here's an example of that. You mentioned Midway. So Midway is a good example of what I'm talking about. We didn't know where the Japanese fleet was. Remember, this was early in the war for us. It wasn't long, what, a year or so after Pearl Harbor. We really were still in a position that any -- another defeat like Pearl Harbor could have been devastating for the United States. And so when we were looking for the Japanese fleet and what they would do, we used a counterintelligence approach. We knew they were listening, right, and so what we did was we didn't know where they were going to attack, so we used a counterintelligence approach and a broadcast gave, you know, signals that the island of Midway was almost out of water. People would -- they were just about out of water. And so when the Japanese picked that up and they started their traffic about -- well you know, talking about it and they -- no they used code. We knew it was Midway. I said Midway, but we used code. Soon as we knew that -- and they weren't out of water, by the way, but as soon as they said, "Hey, they're out of water at Midway," we knew then what their plans were going to be. In other words, we didn't know where they were or where they were going to attack, until we used a counterintelligence approach to understand that, and you know the rest is history.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Is there any decision that you made during the course of your career, whether in combat, or as a commander at Pacific Command, where you look back now and you think, "Intelligence was really crucial to that decision," or, "I'm glad that I had this piece of information, otherwise I could have made the wrong decision or things could have gone wrong," or something like that? I'm just wondering if there's some example from your career where you look back now in your like thoughts when that's an example of when intelligence mattered for the career of General Crutchfield?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, you know, there were a couple of examples. You know, I don't know if it's as clear as the question that you're asking, because many times, especially in combat, you are using all sources of information to make decisions. And the decision is not a linear decision, it's not a black and white thing. There are shades of gray in conducting an air -- conducting an operation inside the pieces of information that you have. So it's not, "I had this information, and I did this, and this worked." It's more like, "I had this information, that information allowed me to execute this plan, and here are the elements that worked because of it, and these are the elements that didn't work because I didn't have all the information, right, I didn't have all the intelligence." I don't think there was ever a time in my career that the picture was crystal clear 100% for me to make a decision. And therefore, I know that I made crucial errors in my judgment because of it. And then there are times where I made the decision, I have to live with the decision based on the information I had. But looking back, I wonder if it was the right decision. Does that make sense; yes, I wonder if the decision that I made was the right decision. And here's one example that I live with even today. In Afghanistan there were two authorities for launching helicopters. I was the Aviation Task Force Commander. And there were two authorities to launch an aircraft after a -- for a soldier or a civilian that may have been hurt or -- and/or killed on the battlefield. Me as the Aviation Task Force Commander, I was one authority, and the division surgeon was the other. And the surgeon had the authority for life, limb, or eyesight determined, "Is this mission for life, limb, or eyesight?" And if that answer was yes, then my authority was to launch the aircraft to do the mission. But both had to be part of this decision.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): And we both are getting intel and information. The surgeon's getting it on what is the status of the individual, "Will they die, will they not die, how much time do we have, do we have the capabilities -- if they were to return back to the surgical facility, do we have the proper equipment to treat them so that they can live?" That's intel. That surgeon is gathering that type of intel. Mine was more, "What is the weather like, what is the enemy situation like, what is my crew status, do I have an aircraft that can do this mission?" Those are the things that I'm intaking. Now, to -- so that I don't belabor the point, here was the decision. I'm getting all those forms of information. I remember it was a terrible night, the weather was bad. We had just gotten a -- we were -- our ground forces were engaged in the same area for a -- it was a terrible, terrible -- well the outcome of the operation was terrible, it was a very difficult place where we knew it was an enemy stronghold. And it was a little Afghan boy who somehow had been shot and needed the -- needed life support for him to live. I think he was probably ten; ten years old. And so I distinctly remember in my headquarters, you know, getting all this information. The weather was really bad. I knew the enemy situation was bad. And all these things I made the decision based on the intelligence that I had at that moment not to go. And the surgeon said, "Life, limb, or eyesight," that's a go. But I made the decision not to go because of all these other things that I was getting, the intel that I was getting. And I do recall that little boy passed away. And I have to live with that. It is something that I lived with, and it is difficult. It -- when I think about it -- you know, I have a ten-year-old grandson. I think about this all the time. And the way that I -- I made the best decision that I could based on the information and intelligence that I had. And that's an example of, "Did you make -- you had this information, did you make the right decision at that moment?" And the way that I justify it in my mind is that I -- it would have been harder for me to explain to a US soldier's wife, husband, mother, brother, why I let that crew go out knowing what I knew and they were shot down and killed. That to me would have been, you know, just as bad, if not worse. So you know, I took you through that story because that is something that I live with. I don't know if I -- I think I made the right decision based on the information that I had. But the outcome of that decision was certainly one that I did not want. [ Transitional sounds ]

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Well, thanks for sharing that, because that's quite illustrative of the imperfect information environment that you're dealing with, and you have to make a judgment call, and there are always tradeoffs. You know, you have to husband the resources of the US Army and keep them there for the long term, and you have to balance off one life against another life and make these utilitarian calculations about the greatest good for the greatest number and so forth. So it's -- yes thanks ever so much for sharing that with me.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): You're welcome.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And I'm just wondering, General Crutchfield, if there's any kind of like philosophical or even more practical training about how to deal with this or how to live with these types of decisions, or is it more just you learn as you go along as part of the institution and, you know, you just sort of do it like that? Help me understand that.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I think it's a little of both. It certainly is something you learn as you gain more experience. It is also something that in different courses we talked about the law of land warfare, you do understand the Geneva Convention, you do know there are certain things that are presented to you throughout your career that you use in making these decisions. And then, quite frankly -- I certainly can't speak for all soldiers, I just know the men and women I've served with, you come in with certain values and understanding through, you know, the mentors and, you know, the people that were in your life that taught you the right from wrong, you know. And then there were -- and then there are these times, Andrew, there are the times that you know all these things but you also know as a soldier you have a job to do, and that job includes ending the adversary's life. I mean, that -- you know that very well. It's not something you want to do or you're proud of, but you know that's your job. And there are times when -- and this is one of those times where you realize -- when I was in Desert Storm, I recall this -- I hate to use the word "hatred", but I've never felt such just anger, you know, for Iraqi soldiers as I felt there, right? You get a -- it was like having a coiled up snake. For months, we were in the desert waiting to be let loose to go into Iraq. Because what we wanted was, "Hey, let's get this done so we can go back home to our families," right, you're -- that -- it's this, you know, this coiled up snake and that's how I felt. I knew I had a job to do, I was going to do that job, and that's all there is to it. And here's what I realized as a young man, and I'm glad I did. It brought me back to the things that I was taught as a young man by my parents, by my clergy, by all the people who were in my life, and it was this. I had an opportunity after the war was over. The ceasefire just happened, and 30 minutes before this time, I was using instruments of war to end the life of people, human beings. And I landed at a place where there were prisoners of war because the MP's flagged me down -- we were flying. The MP's flagged me down, and I landed and they said, "Hey, we need some water -- they're out in the middle of the desert, "We need some water and if you have any food, could you leave that for us?" And my first instinct was, "Well, why am I -- why should I do that? It's not my responsibility to do that." But then what happens is you're the ethical things that are in your DNA, that are ingrained in you, that are taught to you, kicks in; number one. And number two, you're face to face with another human being who is suffering. And it changed my entire perspective. I remember walking over to hand the Iraqi prisoners of war water and food with this -- I remember how I felt, this anger that I felt for them. But as soon as they were humanized and I saw them, I realized they were men just like me. They were fighting for their country and for what they thought was right. They had families just like me. And they wanted to get back to those families. And one of the prisoners showed me a picture of his family, of his wife and his children. And at that moment, Andrew, at that moment, all the things that I have been taught, the basis of the question that you just asked me came to me, and it really made an impression upon me as a young man for the future of my career in the Army, as a senior leader in the Army. One of the things that I have to do as a soldier and ensure that those things are done in a way that you could be sympathetic, empathetic, you can be a human being, right, you can treat others with respect. And I've never forgotten that lesson.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned there the type of person that you were and the values that you already had. So maybe briefly we could talk about, you know, the before times of General Crutchfield when you were plain old Tony Crutchfield before you joined the Army. Who were you? Where were you born and raised? Why did you join the Army? Why were you drawn to it, and so forth?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I was actually born in Little Rock, Arkansas. My father was in the Air Force, but got out shortly after I was born; maybe I was three months old. We moved back to what I consider my hometown. We moved back to Roanoke, Virginia, which is where my parents are from, where all my relatives are born. My parents are buried in Roanoke, Virginia. And so that's where I was raised. That's home to me, Roanoke, Virginia. I went to college. And I was not in ROTC in high school. A military career was not the thing that I thought I would ever do. But the reality was I ran out of money and my parents just couldn't afford it. And so I was doing good in school, and I loved college -- going to college, and I didn't want to drop -- I didn't want to drop out because of money. And I was literally walking across campus, probably towards the end of my freshman year. I saw a table that had ROTC scholarships and few people in uniform. And I went up to them and I asked them. They said, "Yes, you can apply for this scholarship, and if you get it, it's a full scholarship," and all the things that go with it. And I thought, "Wow, okay." So I applied for it, and I got it. And then, Andrew, when I went to -- so I went back to school the next year, I had to be in ROTC classes. And guess what, I found that I really liked it, and I was good at it. And I excelled at it. I was the cadet battalion commander. They choose the top cadet, and every university chooses the top cadet to be the battalion commander of the cadets. That was me. They choose one cadet out of all the schools to go to Lexington, Virginia, where there's an award called a "George Catlett Marshall" -- named after General Marshall, "Award". Only one cadet from each school has a ROTC program, each college. I got that that year. And the interesting thing about that; so I went back -- when I was a one-star, I went back and I did a lecture because they asked me to come back. A guy who had the award years before now has come back to lecture. I did some -- I looked at the -- they had these picture yearbooks, right, with your picture in it and all the people in it. I looked in that book, and I was amazed to see that probably 70% of the people that were in that book that I could recognize and know all made colonel; all of them.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Wow.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Probably another, you know, probably ten percent maybe -- there were probably ten or 15 people who made general officer. There were some people who made -- I was one of them, made three-star general. And this is all in the same group, all in the same -- who were there at the same time, and then another cohort of those people who may have gotten out of the Army who were CEOs and senior people in industry. I couldn't believe it. I thought to myself, "Somebody picked all these people because they could see something in them that they didn't even know they had."

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I thought that was remarkable when I saw that. But -- so that -- all that is to say that I enjoyed it, I liked it, and I was good at it, and then I made a career of it because of that.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: And just on that topic, actually, because you know, the vast majority of people that join the military never even get to colonel or never made general officer. So I don't know, like winning that award, were you -- did you skip quietly through the ranks? Were you seen as someone earlier on who was going to go far if you stuck around, or -- I mean, I'm guessing people have different trajectories. Obviously, I've never had this experience. Maybe what was your journey like?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, I can't speak for everybody. I think it's all of the above. I think there are all kinds of people like that. I will tell you just my experience. I wasn't one of them. I never in my wildest dreams thought it would happen to me. I never set out to do it. And I don't know anybody that I know personally who made general officer was like that, either. I just don't know of any. There are those people who early on in their careers, whether somebody taps them to be or whether they tap themselves to be know, that they're going to be a general. I think if you look at history, some of those people you already know about. You know, MacArthur was probably like that. I mean, from what I've read, he was a person that quite clearly -- you know, his father was a senior military officer, and so therefore, you know, he had these objectives and things that I think took him to his career. There are people like that. I'm not one of them, and I wasn't one of them. Here is what I did. I just worked hard at everything I did. I never -- if somebody asked me to do a job, I didn't say, "That's not my job." I didn't complain. There were places that I was sent, Andrew, that I didn't want to go, but I went. I didn't complain about it. If I was given a job that I didn't necessarily want, I didn't complain about it, I just did it, and did the best that I could. And it was recognized. And therefore, there were people who mentored me along the way who recognized something in me, and they mentored me to that point. That was my experience. And I can't speak for everyone. But most the people I know don't come in the Army to become generals. You know what my goal was, to -- when I came in the Army was to be a battalion commander -- a lieutenant colonel, battalion commander, spend 20 years in the Army, and retire as a lieutenant colonel. That was success to me. That was success to me.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. Yes, wow. And just out of interest there before we move on, were any of those stars sweeter than any of the other? I mean --

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Anytime you are promoted to a higher rank that someone believes that you have the potential to lead men and women -- if you think about it, the responsibility that you have, if someone thinks that you have that, it's a great honor. And it doesn't matter what rank. It is a great, great honor to do that. And I've always felt that way. I still do. If I were to look back at any of the promotions, there were two. I remember the first promotion that I felt this way was when I was promoted to major. So you know, as an 04, I remember how I felt. And back then that was really the first cut mark. That was -- the rank of major was really where 50% of the people I came in the Army with were probably gone by then, or about to go. And I felt at that moment, "Wow, you know, I have made it over that hurdle." And I was quite proud of that. I really truly was. The second time I felt that way was when I was promoted to one-star. And that was -- I felt that way, Andrew, not because of the rank so much, although it was just a huge honor. It wasn't the rank. It was the fact that my father -- one, my father, who was incredibly proud, didn't get to see it. He passed away about five or six months before I was promoted. I pinned a -- at his funeral, I put one of my stars on his lapel of his jacket, because he was so proud of me and he didn't get to see it. The reason that it's special is because of that and because my mother was there. And it was the last promotion that she saw before she passed away.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): That's what's ingrained in my mind. It's not so much me and what I did, it was the fact that I had the people that I love, the people who were responsible for this, around me to see it; because I think it's more of a testament to them than it is to me.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. [ Transitional sounds ] I'm just thinking as well like in terms of the types of people that join the Army and the people that get to the upper echelons there, I know that you have been a supporter of outreach programs, especially for people who get into leadership positions and so forth. Can you tell us a little bit more about what animates that and what it means to you and your support for that kind of work?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, I do a lot of mentorship. I do it for many reasons, but the main reason I do it is because if I didn't have that, I don't think I would have been in the position of which we just talked about. You have to have those people in your life along the way to mentor you and guide you. I was fortunate that I had that. And lots of young people today don't have that. And so it's important to me that I at least try to give them -- where I can, give them that mentorship and leadership. So I mentor young people in college. I'm on a board of what's called "Yeager Scholars", named after Chuck Yeager, General Yeager --

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): -- at Marshall University. I sit on that board. I select those Yeager scholars that go to that. I do mentorship at all levels. There is not a person who has called me who may be getting out of the Army. Some I -- many I know, some I don't. They're just all, "Hey, call Tony Crutchfield. He can help you." I have never said no; never said no to that. I will make time for that anytime, because it's important to me. And it's important to me because I just know that I wouldn't be here where I am if I didn't have that. And so it's a way for me to pay back.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. Do you think that the Army is getting a broad enough cross-section of American society, like compared to when you joined up to compared to when you left, and then even the work that you do now?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I do worry about that. I worry that the military in general, not just the Army, we're getting further and further away from the people that we serve. And for many reasons; there are many reasons for it. I think COVID definitely damaged the relationship quite a bit. For example, when COVID happens, because of the -- you know, the shutdown of schools and things like that, we couldn't have recruiters, we couldn't have people who mentor, couldn't go into the schools. And after COVID, it just -- it takes time to build that muscle memory back, right? And so we've kind of lost that. The other thing that I think we've -- I fear that we're losing the connection with the American people is because when -- and this is one of those things where -- you know, we talk about security and intelligence, this is one of those things that is a delicate balance, and that is after September the 11th, 2001, we closed all the bases; we made all the bases close that you have to stop at a gate with guards and you have to show ID and everything. Whereas before that, they were open; you could go in and out of a military installation quite freely. And now you can't. I think that has further divided us because many people just won't do it, they won't go through a gate there. Then the last thing, I would say is -- and I think this is starting to change a little bit. There was a period there between when I came in the Army and about the time I left the Army where many of our leaders in Congress have never served. The percentage who have served in the military were fewer and fewer. And I think that's another disconnect that we will have. Now, I think from what I'm seeing and reading that's starting to change. But that's going to take a while to do. And the last point I'll make on this, that is extremely important, because if you have the authority and the power to send men and women to war and to possibly be killed, you ought to know a little bit about it before you do it, and understand what that truly, truly means what our country asks of that.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. And tell us what you've been up to since you left the military.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Well, I work at Boeing Company. I've been here -- let's see, Friday, this Friday, will be seven years that I've been at the Boeing Company. And I've been retired seven years, too, which I can't believe. And so I am the Vice President of Army Systems, and I work with the Army on projects and things that the Army is buying it from the Boeing Company. I'm kind of that liaison. The best what I can put it is the liaison to make sure that we understand what the Army needs, that we are -- I'm translating that into Boeing speak to say, "This is what the Army needs," and vice versa. Other than that, I'm being a grandfather with three beautiful grandsons, and enjoying my time with my family. That's what I'm doing.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm. And you're also a big sports fan, I understand, the Gnats and the cops?

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I love the Gnats. I mean, I'm a big baseball fan. I was a baseball fan, you know, when I was younger coming up here to see the Senators, the Washington Senators play. We have relatives in the district and I would come to Washington, DC during the summers, spend summers here in the district, and so I am a huge Gnats fan. And I also love the Commanders. I just want both teams to start winning a little bit.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: [Laughs] Do you -- just out of interest, do you ever look at like a sports team and you can't turn off your Army brain, you know, the Army where you're systematizing, you're thinking about better ways to do stuff, you're thinking about discipline, and organization, and tactics, and strategy? Do you ever think to yourself, "Jeez, you know, they just need a bit of US Army treatment." Do you ever think that, or is it just too different? [Laughter]

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): No, I do, and I shouldn't. My wife reminds me of that all the time.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: You can't turn it off.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes, you can't turn it off. And she does at times remind me of that. Yes, I do that. And I'll be honest with you, I certainly don't have the background and the knowledge to even, you know, say what I think a professional sports team should or should not do. I've never been a coach in that capacity. But all of us -- I think that's in all of us, right, that --

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Yes.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): -- it's easy to -- I always say this, it's easy to criticize, hard to create. So I think that's where I fall.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: [Laughs] Okay. And is there one thing that you would give our listeners to walk away with that you've learned during the course of your career about intelligence, maybe an insight, or reflection, or just something that maybe that people must understand or don't quite understand well enough? Maybe not. I just thought that I would give you an opportunity if there was.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I would share this. I share this with my family, my grandsons, my children. Number one, be aware of your surroundings. Always be aware of where you are, who's there. I don't mean be paranoid. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just be aware of what's happening around you, especially as we read all the time about things that are happening to people in bad ways. So just be aware. The other thing is understand that throughout your life, certainly with social media and connections that we have today, someone -- whether it's for criminal purposes or for business purposes, someone is always collecting information on you, always, no matter what you do. If you do the supermarket thing online, you know, the click lists or whatever it's called, someone is collecting the information of what you like. And in the case of marketing, which could be good and bad, depending on which side you're on, they are targeting, if you will. They are looking at the things that you like to present those things to you at another point in the future. That's collection, and that's intelligence that's used for marketing. I think conversely, the same thing is happening criminally, too. The same exact thing can be happening right now criminally. Whether it's breaking and hacking into your bank account, whether it's stealing money from you because you think it's a trusted source and it isn't. We have to be aware of these things. And because someone tells you that this is a secure device or this is -- you know, you've opted out of something doesn't necessarily mean that's the case. It just doesn't. And if you fail to understand that, there are things that can happen that are not going to be pleasant for you. Now, if there are things -- if you want to shop and you want a new coat, that's -- it's a good deal. Just understand that. Understand your surroundings. If I could while -- the time we have left is an example of what I'm talking about, it goes back to my military experience when I would visit China. I think you and I had this conversation before. Talk about collection. I mean, -- and you know it. There was a time that I went there and I spent a few days there. And I was a three-star general. They knew that I was a three-star general. And I went to a conference. And when I came back from that conference, my counterintelligence people said, "Sir, we need to see everything that you took. We want to see your bags, everything." They did their assessment. They took apart my nametag that I had. You know the little name tag you have --

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): -- hey, "My name is," whatever, when they peeled that apart, there was a chip that knew my every move; knew when I was coming, knew when I was going, knew where I was. So you can't be naïve to those types of things. And they're happening to us -- again, I don't want to sound paranoid, but it is happening to us.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): And I want to just impress upon our audience that just be aware of that.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Hmm. Well, thanks ever so much for that parting thought, and thanks so much for such a pleasant and interesting conversation. I've really enjoyed speaking to you.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): I have really enjoyed it. I look forward to this, and I hope that I have given your audience, this audience, something that they could think about. And hopefully I've been interesting, and that maybe one day you'll invite me back.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: You definitely have. [Laughter]

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Yes.

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Thanks so much.

Lieutenant General Anthony Crutchfield (Ret.): Thank you. [ Music ]

Dr. Andrew Hammond: Thanks for listening to this episode of "SpyCast". Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Coming up next week on "SpyCast" -- >> I started three months before the first museum opened. So that's -- you know, everything was under way with the exhibits, but that was it. I was employee number one for the content side, so that was what I was brought on to do at that point. If you have feedback, you can reach us by email at spycast.spymuseum.org or on X @intospycast. If you go to our page at the cyberwire.com/podcast/spycast, you can find links to further resources, detailed show notes, and full transcripts. I'm your host, Andrew Hammond, and my podcast content partner is Erin Dietrich. The rest of the team involved in the show is Mike Mincey, Memphis Vaughn III, Emily Coletta, Emily Rens, Afir Inaqua [phonetic], Ariel Samuel, Elliott Peltzman, Tre Hester, and Jen Eiben. The show is brought to you from the home of the World's Preeminent Collection of Intelligence and Espionage-Related Artifacts, the International Spy Museum. [ Music ]