Afternoon Cyber Tea with Ann Johnson 11.28.23
Ep 86 | 11.28.23

The Power of Diverse Perspectives with Lynn Dohm


Ann Johnson: Welcome to "Afternoon Cyber Tea", where we explore the intersection of innovation and cybersecurity. I'm your host, Ann Johnson. From the frontlines of digital defense to groundbreaking advancement shaping our digital future, we will bring you the latest insights, expert interviews, and captivating stories to stay one step ahead. [ Music ] Today I'm joined by Lynn Dohm, the executive director of Women in Cybersecurity or "WiCyS" for short. Lynn brings more than 25 years of organizational and leadership experience to the Women in Cybersecurity WiCyS team. Lynn is passionate about the need for diverse mindsets, skill sets, and perspectives. She aims to facilitate learning opportunities and discussions on leading with inclusion, equity, and allyship. Lynn has collaborated with businesses, nonprofits, grants, and philanthropies to help produce outcomes aligned with cybersecurity workforce initiatives. Welcome to "Afternoon Cyber Tea", Lynn.

Lynn Dohm: Thanks, Ann, it's a pleasure to be here.

Ann Johnson: So for folks who are not familiar and listening, WiCyS is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to recruiting, retaining, and advancing women in the field of cybersecurity. The organization provides a supportive community and resources for women pursuing careers in cybersecurity and in related fields. Now, Lynn, you've been the executive director of WiCyS since 2019, so I would love to hear more about your journey, and how and why you got involved with WiCyS to begin with.

Lynn Dohm: Aw, well, thanks, Ann, for that. And yes, that's right, I started as the executive director in 2019, but I have been involved with WiCyS for quite some time. And I was really fortunate for it to cross paths along my career journey, of course, because now, I'm part of leading this amazing community-based organization. But my journey with WiCyS started about 15 years ago with cybersecurity. When I first started paying attention to cybersecurity is when I started working with NSF grants. And my role with many different NSF-funded grants was to communicate what senators were doing in the cybersecurity workforce, and to make it understandable for stakeholders, and for the community, for faculty, for students to learn, and grow, and step into this space. And it was my role and it led me to many different nonprofits and for-profits, and I just started navigating through my career. And I was really fortunate to work with many individuals that were completely passionate about the cybersecurity workforce. And I became kind of stuck in that role, in that niche area of focus of cybersecurity because it was so fast-paced. It was fascinating to me because it was ever-evolving, it was problem-solving. And everyone that was working in cybersecurity was just engrossed in it. They were completely passionate. They were hyper-focused. And there were so many lucrative careers in cybersecurity, and so many different areas you could go. But yet, there was this critical workforce shortage. And it blew my mind. Like to me when I started working in cybersecurity so many years ago, why wouldn't anyone want to be there? But yet, through all these years, there continues to be such a critical workforce shortage. And so once I stepped into the space of workforce initiatives with cybersecurity, that's the area that I really resonated with. And it led me to my career. And in 2015, I started working with WiCyS. And then in 2018, when the WiCyS conference was here in the Chicagoland area, it was when I attended my first conference. And it was the first time in my career that my network was formed and my community was found. And I just had this amazing camaraderie with the individuals that I met at that WiCyS conference. And my career advanced very quickly within that year. And in 2019, I received a message from the WiCyS founder, Dr. Ambareen Siraj, who was at Tennessee Tech University at the time. She reached out to me and asked me if I would consider applying for the executive director role. And I thought, "When else in my career would I be able to merge my passion and my career into one space?" And so I went for it. You know, Dr. Siraj believed in me before I believed in myself. And I'm so grateful she certainly did, because I had the great fortune for the past four years to be executive director of this nonprofit.

Ann Johnson: And you've done an amazing job, by the way. I was at the RSA Conference this past spring, and the amount of people that -- not only the volume of people you had in the room, but the energy level, and the enthusiasm, and surely, the community was really on display. So congratulations for, you know, the work you've accomplished just in four years.

Lynn Dohm: Oh, well thank you for that. And it's the community, we feed off of one another's energy. And to be able to listen to the community's needs, and align it with our partners, and kind of bridge those gaps is just a really unique and fortunate position to be in.

Ann Johnson: That's fantastic. So let's just talk a little bit more, then, about the challenge of diversity in the cybersecurity industry. I know the situation varies from place to place, but in general, cybersecurity has long been a really male-dominated industry. And organizations like WiCyS have helped make a ton of progress in recent years, but we still have a long way to go. How are you thinking about the challenge of increasing the representation of women cybersecurity, and what -- how does that inform your priorities for WiCyS?

Lynn Dohm: Great, thank you for that. You know, I really do think it's important to note that WiCyS is not a women's only organization. We're community-comprised of women, men, and nonbinary individuals that are all concerned about the critical workforce shortage. And because they're concerned about the critical workforce shortage, they support the WiCyS organization, because our mission is to recruit, retain, and advance women in cybersecurity. So we're one piece of that puzzle of, you know, trying to overcome the challenges that exist. But we do know within the organization that in order to -- there are two problems with building an effective cybersecurity workforce. One is that in order to have diversity, you need the pipeline. In order to have the pipeline, you need to tap into diverse communities. And so that cycle keeps going around and around. And with WiCyS, our mission is to recruit, retain, and advance women, so we know as women are entering into the WiCyS organization to advance within their careers because of it, we're able to pay it forward to build that pipeline. So we keep that cycle going, that lifecycle, recruit, retain, and advance, going strong. But what we do in our contribution to this concern is that we bring accessibility and opportunities to cybersecurity for others to join. We layer it with mentoring and resources and all the wraparound services and support that's needed, and we align it with our employer partners. So we listen to our community, we build programs that make sense. We also align it with our partners so it makes sense for them for their hiring needs, and we cultivate this culture of inclusion. We bring together a place where everyone belongs in cybersecurity. So we do all this so that we reduce those barriers to entry or those overcome -- help overcome the challenges of women advancing in their careers. And we do it so that we open up those doorways to give opportunities. And so that's our contribution to increasing the representation of women in the industry. And, you know, we have a very large community and lots of contributors that help make this a success.

Ann Johnson: That's fantastic. And by the way, I like the way you frame that, right? WiCyS is a community, and that community includes nonbinary folks. It includes men. It's a community of folks that are concerned about the talent shortage and how we can address the talent shortage. And that's so important, because when you think about inclusiveness, that inclusiveness has to be truly inclusiveness, right, we can't exclude any one group when we're trying to solve a big problem.

Lynn Dohm: Yes; exactly.

Ann Johnson: So the issue of representation lends to this broader challenge, a challenge that you and I have been talking about in this gap that we're facing in the industry. I see just practically, right, increasing representation is one way to solve these millions of cyber job openings around the world. When you actually talk to employers and you were talking about, you know, how you interface with employers and other WiCyS partners, do they view representation as a way to help solve the problem?

Lynn Dohm: Absolutely; they absolutely do. And with WiCyS, we have almost 70 strategic partners that are a community themselves, you know, back to the community piece. And what's interesting about them is that they're all coming to WiCyS investing in the industry, understanding what the organization can do to help overcome those barriers. And they all come with the understanding of knowing -- like especially within cybersecurity, in order to solve these problems that never previously existed before, we need not only all genders, but identities, ethnicities, cultures, experiences, backgrounds, and more. We need all hands on deck. And we do so to avoid that groupthink mindset. And I don't know, Ann, if you remember this, but about a year or two ago, you were on a WiCyS webinar, and you yourself introduced we to that term "groupthink mindset", and it resonated with me. It like hit me to my core, because it was something that I've experienced so often in my career, and something that we were tackling and overcoming the challenges of within WiCyS. But this word that you introduced me to, I'm like, "This summarizes it all so perfectly. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid here with cybersecurity." And because evidence shows that systemic errors are made by groups that have all the same mindset. It provides the illusion of invulnerability, and because there's no alternative opinion to make the group think otherwise. And so it's important for employers to understand this and they believe the strategic partners -- I know the partners that are investing within WiCyS and the employer partners that we continue to work with have that really good level of understanding now saying that we need to overcome this challenge. And it takes organizations like WiCyS and many other organizations to continue to do the good work to bring that diverse talent not only to the table, but to support them throughout their career, throughout their career advancement, and then get them to a place like you where you're now paying it forward.

Ann Johnson: Yes, and I think that groupthink thing is so important. And I talk about it -- it's funny you brought that up, I talk about it from multidimensional, right, education background, geographic, background, socioeconomic background, race, gender, et cetera. All of those things plus more can play into that groupthink. And if you -- as I say to folks if you hire -- if everybody you hire has an advanced engineering degree from MIT, you're never going to have a conversation about the diversity perspective needed to solve a hard problem because everybody's going to look at the problem the exact same way. So it's a lot of dimensions. So we talked about career growth, and we're going to talk about, you know, mentorship a little bit more. But pipeline; one of the challenges we have in cyber is that -- and particularly women or young girls tend to leave STEM education early, and we don't really have a representative pipeline to draw from. Can you talk us through your thoughts about pipeline? Are women truly losing interest in STEM education and careers at specific points in their education or life? And how can we positively impact to change this?

Lynn Dohm: So data does show that about roughly 50 to 60 percent of women that are interested in STEM do lost interest in STEM careers as they get closer to college. That is the unfortunate reality, because it is hard to be what you cannot see. And representation does matter. So there are so many studies out there that show that women in STEM actually support women in STEM. Just having others around them that look like them is a support effort themselves. And universities, certification training programs, and employers are recognizing the massive amount of importance of that, having full representation of all individuals on their teams. But for WiCyS, what we're doing is try to overcome some of those challenges by mobilizing our community. We have a very large community in a way of representation in 95 countries. We have 9,000 members, or close to 9,000 members. We have these student chapters. We have these professional affiliates. And we want to ensure that they're out there being heard, and they're out there showcasing themselves and their talent, so that they can be seen in this space, and they can be accessible for others. And also, with our student chapters, putting them out there to reach out into those high schools, and to educate about what the cybersecurity workforce can bring, and the career pathways that could bring these high school students. But it's also to guide those high school students to know that there's a place for you where you belong. For some, "pioneering" sounds so inspiring, and they want to be in that space, to be the first woman in that classroom, and to pioneer that. But for others, it's a very isolating experience. And so we're here to create that community and bring that space of inclusion so people could enter with that safety and security of knowing that they have the support, and the resources, and all that they need to succeed.

Ann Johnson: That's fantastic. I always love listening to you because you have such passion about the work that you are doing. So thank you for sharing that perspective. I also note -- I talk to a lot of people that are breaking into the industry and landing that first cyber role can be particular challenging for both women and minorities alike. For the employers and the business leaders out there, how should we be thinking about this problem, and what should we be doing differently to change it?

Lynn Dohm: One of my favorite stories that I love sharing when asked this is about three years ago, I was at an event in Columbus, Ohio. And after the event, I sat down to the luncheon after the keynote, and a gentleman was sitting to the left of me. So I was sitting at a table with all men that I've never met before. And this guy to the left of me was so excited. He was the CSO of a fairly large organization. And he said that he had 35% women on his cybersecurity team and he wasn't going to stop until he was at 50%. And he was so incredibly proud of himself. And I was really impressed with that statistic, because the industry average is about roughly 20 to 24 percent, and even most folks don't even see that within their cybersecurity teams. So I asked him what he's doing differently. And he was so thoughtful in his answer. He really took his time and took this real long pause, and kind of looked around the table, and then turned to me and he's like, "You know what, Lynn, I started paying attention." And so that's kind of my -- always my common statement that I thread throughout my presentations and throughout my conversations is just this thought of paying attention. There are so many intentional actions that can take place. And Ann, I know you do all of them. But there are intentional actions that people could start paying attention to. And that -- for that particular CSO, what he did is that he knew if the diverse talent wasn't interviewing for the positions that he was opening up -- that he was opening up, that something was broken, and that it needed to be looked into further. And when he started reviewing the job racks, he realized that there was so much on the job racks that was actually a wish list, knowing fully well that when he brought in those team members that he would be training them on the tools that they were using internally. And he also realized that there are things like gender-neutral tools he could utilize, that he was able to rewrite these job racks and make them more intentional by removing the wish list that was on there, and to be able to present these job racks over to his female cybersecurity talent that he already had saying, "Hey, how does this sound to you? Is this more inclusive?" And he started putting all these intentional actions into place and meeting the community where the community is at; because the diverse talent exists. WiCyS exists and has an incredible community of those investing in the recruit, retain, and advance women in cybersecurity. But there are other communities and nonprofits that exist in this diverse cybersecurity space as well. So it can be found once you pay attention and meet the community where the community is at.

Ann Johnson: I like that. And that meeting the community is at, one of the things that I do is checking every job description to make sure the language is really inclusive so that anybody would feel welcome applying for the role, right? And we talk a lot about the language of cyber also and making sure we're not always talking in these deep militaristic terms that can turn people off; men and women alike, by the way. They're just like, "I don't -- you know, I don't know what you all are talking about, and I don't want to be involved."

Lynn Dohm: [Laughs] Right. We've done a really good job of securing people because of the terminology.

Ann Johnson: So let's talk a little bit -- I've read something in the WiCyS blog recently that resonated with me. The blog said -- and I'm quoting it, "One of the most impactful ways that we can create a welcoming environment is through our words. In every space that we enter, we have the opportunity to use language that makes everyone around us feel comfortable and to feel safe." I like this because it is not enough to just hire women into the industry, organizations actually have to be intentional every day to create inclusive environments to make people want to stay. Brett Arsinoris [phonetic] he still likes to say, "You go where you're invited, you stay where you're welcome." So what is your perspective on inclusivity, and what practical advice would you give to our listeners on how they could help create a more inclusive environment in their organizations?

Lynn Dohm: Well, this is one of my favorite topics, so [laughs] I really appreciate and love that fact that you're bringing up inclusion here because it's extremely important. The focus is always like, "We need to build the diverse cybersecurity workforce. We need, you know, to diversify. What are we going to do to diversify?" But when you peel back the layers, you then realize that the lack of diversity is a symptom of the lack of inclusion. But as the whole world keeps talking about diversifying the workforce, we know that sometimes in some instances, it can turn into a feel-good metric, because it's a data point and it's a metric that you can measure. And so for some organizations out there, they might measure their diversity numbers. They might put in some initiatives, very likely early career, and a year from now, they can measure those diversity metrics again, and if they grew ever so slightly, they could feel good about themselves and pat themselves on the back and feel like their job is well done. And that's all fine and dandy, but inclusion, inclusion is much more complicated, and it's not normally talked about because it's complicated. Because inclusion is a feeling. And it's not a data point. It's not this metric you can measure. But it's a feeling and it's more of a feeling felt when you're excluded. And so for WiCyS, it was really important for us to have this conversation with industry leaders about the state of inclusion, and how are we going to quantify inclusion in order for us to open up the doorways for these conversations? So we partnered with Aalyria and we quantified the experiences of exclusion for women in cybersecurity to identify the state of inclusion. The findings were really, really interesting that, you know, there are 50% of women that feel like their career and growth lack of advancement opportunities within the organization was their primary source of exclusion in the workplace. And it was super interesting to us and our research partner because it wasn't found there in any other industries. So for us to continue to do the good work that we're doing within WiCyS, we have to not only focus on the pipeline, but also that leaky pipe. And that's where the inclusivity really needs to be focused on. And so we've put together so many resources like inclusive language. That's an open source, that can -- we're always adding to that inclusive language in the cybersecurity workforce. We have documents on inclusive leadership, how to be an allied woman in cybersecurity, and so many others; how to create a neurodiverse event. That's a very interesting one, too. So we have all of these resources available for everyone have access to so that they could pay attention. Because we hear time and time again -- and as a matter of fact, even a recent event I went to, I gathered all these stories that the lack of inclusion is very prominent and exists very much so just in this day-to-day. We hear stories about managers that put up their new hires under leadership slide decks and label the slide deck "Diversity Hire". We have instances where industry professionals are showcasing or going out to, you know, universities and offering their time, volunteering their time for elevator pitches, only to say to the only female in her room that the elevator pitch was excellent, but her necklace and her nails were distracting. Like these instances are happening right here and right now. So our words do matter. How we express ourselves matter. How we create this culture of inclusion truly does matter in the cybersecurity workforce, not only for us to attract diverse talent, but for those individuals to be retained and to be able to elevate and advance themselves because of it.

Ann Johnson: You know, I think, Lynn -- and I'm going to paraphrase Maya Angelou who says that, you know, "People may forget what you say, but they'll remember how you make them feel."

Lynn Dohm: Yes.

Ann Johnson: And part of that language has to be making people feel welcome. And when you tell somebody that -- when you give guidance to a woman about, you know, her necklace or whatever, and you're not giving similar guides to a man, it just, you know, doesn't make you feel good, right?

Lynn Dohm: Right.

Lynn Johnson: Just doesn't make you want to be there.

Lynn Dohm: Right; exactly.

Ann Johnson: So let's talk for just a moment about mentorship and about sponsorship. Both are super important to career growth and retention. But from the women I've talked to in the industry, it can be really hard to find good mentors and to find those good sponsors. When you give advice to women who are looking for mentors and sponsors, what advice do you give them to look for on how to actually recruit somebody to be their mentor or their sponsor?

Lynn Dohm: So this is a great question. And I know how you feel about sponsoring. I see your post about, "Well, we need more people out there sponsoring others." And I love that. And when we start having these conversations about mentoring, it could be very intimidating for individuals to think like, "How am I going to get a mentor?" And that's why WiCyS has a mentor/mentee program. And we always share information. Like as a person who's going through career advancement, there are studies that show that they're surrounded around -- by seven mentors in their life that's helping them guide them through that career advancement opportunity. And the first time I came across that information, I thought, "Wow, seven mentors, this seems a little excessive. Like how could someone have the time for seven mentors?" And then I started thinking about my own career advancement, and I thought, "My gosh, in so many ways, once I started paying attention to those that influenced me and championed me in my decisions, and helped coach me through it, I had about seven people that were so influential in that area." And so we started looking at research and we came across research that showed that as a -- that a person who has a mentor is five times more likely to be promoted. But what was also really interesting is that a person that's mentoring is six times more likely. Isn't that amazing? Like I didn't --

Ann Johnson: That's fascinating. I did not know that.

Lynn Dohm: It is fascinating to me. And so that's why we started going down the journey of what would a mentor/mentee program look like for WiCyS? One, we want to create this safe space for mentors to be like, "Hey, I need -- " or mentees to be like, "Hey, sign me up. I need a mentor." And then, two, we wanted to create a safe space for mentors to be like, "Wait, I know I want to step into mentoring, but I also know it's a kind of a leadership skill set to be able to coach, guide, and give experience to another individual." And so we wanted to create a safe space for them to feel comfortable to join in on this, too. So we created the WiCyS mentor/mentee program, where essentially we put together curriculum and resources to mentor the mentor in the program, to mobilize them and give them the guidance and the confidence needed for them to then mentor their cohort. And we did it in a cohort setting intentionally because the women's networks out there in cybersecurity are already so small, and that we all lean in, and learn, and grow from one another's experiences in so many different ways. And we find those learning experiences extremely valuable for anyone's career advancement. So we did it in a cohort intentionally so it's another network for these women. So as the women are going through the mentor/mentee program, they're growing and expanding in their careers because of it, and they're going out and getting new careers, and advancing in their careers, getting promotions that their own network is growing because of the cohort that's formed. And so even myself being in the program for the past three years -- this is my third year as a mentor in the program, those cohorts mean everything to me. You know, we have our own text threads. We have -- we're -- when there are situations that arise within the community. We're with one another and we're talking through it, we're helping one another there. And we continue to do that. Now, even myself, my cohorts and my network has grown because of it. So I love that. And then as the mentor goes through a certain level and they feel confident and comfortable, then we would want them to step into the space of sponsorship; you know, sponsorship. And that's really advocating for one on behalf of one for them to get the promotion, or get that stretch assignment, or get invited to that leadership meeting and really putting yourself out there for that individual that you believe in. But you know, mentoring is leadership. And then really going into sponsoring, that's a stronger skill set, but one that's so critically, critically important. And if we want to make a difference in the workforce, this is exactly how people need to step in and step up because of it.

Ann Johnson: That's fantastic. Thank you for that perspective. WiCyS has thousands of members. Again, congratulations on the growth. All your events sold out or more -- standing room only, so it's amazing. I'd love to know what else you are hearing from your members. What areas of focus would they like to see the industry prioritize?

Lynn Dohm: Oh, gosh. Well, that's one that we're, you know, really working on, and we're looking at ourselves and gathering more of that information. And why this conversation is so top of mind is that we're going to be putting some intentional actions like really serving our community, and then also doing listening sessions. Because what we have found is that sometimes someone within their career that's stuck or seeking for guidance doesn't necessarily know how to articulate what their needs are in that space. And so why WiCyS is now going to put together a series of surveys and hopefully these listening sessions moving forward is that we want to tap into the women that have had career advancement and that are in this space, in these mid or senior roles, and we want to find out what was that thing, what was that skill set, or what was that opportunity, or who was that person that helped you or got you to your next level up? And then after we assess listening to the community on what they feel their needs are, and then, you know, really tuning in and tapping into, identifying what these women in mid and senior roles, what was the thing that got them there, then we're going to even align ourselves and build out programs to fit within that space. So you know, there's lots of work that needs to be done, especially in the nonprofit space, especially since we're at a critical workforce shortage and we definitely need to continue working on all that. So we're in the process of discovering that ourselves. So maybe next year, I could come back on the podcast and share our findings.

Ann Johnson: That would be fantastic. I'd always love to have you back. I know you're super busy. You have lots of irons in the fire, too. So can you share for our listeners a few of the things you're currently pursuing?

Lynn Dohm: Yes, yes. So right now, for all the listeners, we are working on now growing. So we pioneered the study, the WiCyS State of Inclusion, and we have that executive summary on our website; it's available for download. So everyone could check that out. But we're looking to grow that. So we did the pioneering study that findings were really interesting to us, and now we want to learn more; and we're going to grow that. And so in November, we're opening it up to the public, men, women, nonbinary individuals, to participate in the state of inclusion. It's all anonymous and available for everyone to join, and just share their experiences of exclusion. So there are one-hour workshops, and they're super interesting, incredible learning opportunities. So I will encourage everyone to, you know, join in on that. But we're also going to be looking at how could we -- with our mentor/mentee program? How can we grow and develop that curriculum further for our mentors? So that's something that we're kind of revamping and looking at. And then right now we're very focused on our WiCyS Conference that's April 10th through the 13th, 2024. We have our Call for Participation open right now. We're a technical conference. We want to showcase the diverse talent from within our organization, within our community members, and elevate those women in that technical space through their presentation skills within that conference. So we have our CFP, our Call for Participation open; and all our scholarships. So one thing about the WiCyS conference -- and I often think back to our founder, Ambareen Siraj, she's ingenious. When she started the conference back in 2014, for every regular registrant, she issued out a scholarship to an aspiring or underrepresented professional. So regardless of gender, at the WiCyS Conference, we're the only cybersecurity conference that ensures equal representation of industry professionals, and aspiring or underrepresented, underserved professionals there. And we do that through our scholarships. So our scholarship application is open right now. We'll be issuing out, you know, maybe close to a thousand scholarships to the 2024 conference, maybe a little more than that. And so that's what we're really focused on.

Ann Johnson: Brilliant. I love the scholarship program. Thanks for chatting with us, Lynn. Despite the -- by the way, I'm always an optimist, right, I talk about that. And despite the rise in overall cybercrime, I believe cyber defenders are more often than not one step ahead of the bad guys. Can you talk about, as we wrap up today, why are you optimistic about the future of the world, the digital world, and how we could capably defend it?

Lynn Dohm: Why I'm optimistic is because I see the conscious awareness and those identifying on how -- what building up the workforce is going to take, and what creating inclusive spaces to keep the retention of our existing workforce, what it's going to take. And I see this awareness with industry leaders, with organizations, with the investment in the industry, with all sorts of kind of this ecosystem, this multi-organization approach coming together and overcoming these challenges collectively. It's no longer this isolated, insolent, or a siloed conversation. It's now more of this community conversation of, "Hey, we're all here identifying together that this is a problem. The workforce shortage is a problem, but we're here to work on it together." And I've seen that through the past few years of working within WiCyS. And at the very beginning, that awareness wasn't quite there. And now it's so heightened, and everyone is so coming together and moving toward a better tomorrow. So I feel really good about the good work that we're doing, other organizations are doing. But I'm also really, really proud to work with the industries that are coming together in this multi-organization approach, too. It's really powerful.

Ann Johnson: That is really powerful. And thank you. I know you're super busy, so thanks for taking the time to join the podcast, and for all of our listeners today.

Lynn Dohm: Oh, thanks, Ann. It's always a pleasure talking to you. I would never pass up an opportunity to be with you. Of course, their conversations are always lively and fun. So thank you for having me today.

Ann Johnson: And many thanks for our audience for listening. Join us next time on "Afternoon Cyber Tea". [ Music ] I invited Lynn Dohm from WiCyS to join me on "Afternoon Cyber Tea" because Lynn is such a visionary leader about how we close the talent gap in the cybersecurity industry, and how we really think about diversity in a broad way. Her insights are always, always really just tremendous. And I know people will enjoy the conversation. [ Music ] >> This week on "The Microsoft Threat Intelligence Podcast", Jack Mott joins me to discuss the movie "Heat" and its relevance to social engineering and threat actor psychology. Be sure to listen in and follow us at or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.