The bipartisan case for CISA.

Dave Bittner: Hello everyone, and welcome to "Caveat," N2K Cyberwire's privacy surveillance law and policy podcast. I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is my cohost Ben Yelin, from the University of Maryland's Center for Cyber Health and Hazard Strategies. Hey there, Ben.

Ben Yelin: Hello, Dave.

Dave Bittner: On today's show, Ben has the story of a new high-profile AI skeptic. I've got the story of bipartisan support for CISA. While this show covers legal topics, and Ben is a lawyer, the views expressed do not constitute legal advice, or official legal advice on any of the topics we cover. Please contact your attorney. [ Music ] Alright, Ben. We've got some interesting things to talk about today. You want to kick things off for us here?

Ben Yelin: Yes. So I'd like to discuss the world's most famous Chicago White Sox fan, and I am not referring to former President Obama, but rather to Pope Leo the Fourteenth.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: Who is the first American pope. And you know, I think a lot of what he's done since he assumed his position around a year ago has been really interesting. And for our purposes, he's emerged as a major high-profile skeptic of artificial intelligence. And he has decided to weigh in very publicly on the perils of AI. I think his voice is really important here for a number of reasons.

Dave Bittner: Alright.

Ben Yelin: So the article I'm getting this from talks about how the pope is going to release a major papal document. It's called an "encyclical." Somebody who's not Catholic, I -- correct me if I get any of these terms wrong.

Dave Bittner: I was raised Catholic, but it's been a while.

Ben Yelin: It's been a while? Yes, it's been a minute?

Dave Bittner: I can't say I'm up on all the latest.

Ben Yelin: So this entire document is going to be focused on the dangers of artificial intelligence. And it's the longest document, longest one of these encyclicals, that he's released during his -- I guess they call it "the papacy," his term as being pope.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: So this is not just something that's one of many issues. He sees this as a central issue of our time. I think he sees himself as well-positioned to discuss the ethical issues of artificial intelligence. So things like rising economic inequality as a result of job displacement, impacts on justice and social order, the importance of humanity and human dignity. And I think this -- at least the way he sees it, this is part of a long tradition of the Catholic church and the pope harping on things like social teachings, responding to disruptive changes. They did so during the Industrial Revolution, and this is just the next one where they can kind of weigh in on behalf of morality and social cohesion. So some of the risks he talks about from this new Industrial Revolution that will reshape nearly all of the aspects of our lives, job displacement, transforming labor market. A job is our dignity, and it gives our lives a sense of purpose, and if we have -- even if we have the Elon/anthropic vision of AI where it does all the work, and we just get a universal basic income, like, that's not something that's morally sustainable. With that in mind, he talked about the concentration of power and wealth in a few large tech companies.

Dave Bittner: [laughs] Sorry. The guy with the golden scepter's talking about --

Ben Yelin: Yes. No.

Dave Bittner: Go on.

Ben Yelin: There's certainly some irony there.

Dave Bittner: Right, right. Sorry. I really shouldn't weigh in that way. It's unfair of me. Go ahead.

Ben Yelin: Send all of your anger emails directly to our co-hoster.

Dave Bittner: To lapsed Catholic @N2K.com.

Ben Yelin: Exactly. And then just the equity concerns. Like the fact that there's going to be this wide gap between people who can use and access this technology, and people in the developing world who cannot. So he acknowledges the significant promise of AI. He's like, I couldn't actually say this, but part of me thinks, I wrote this entire encyclical on ChatGPT, so obviously there's a lot of promise here. But when you weigh the promise against the peril, I think it's really a call to recognize the danger. That it could erode our values and our autonomy, and that if we don't pay attention to these potential negative effects, then it has the power to really cause significant harm across communities, particularly in the developing world. So his kind of calls to action, his focus on the human dignity and common good, that this is a technology that must serve people. The technology should never be in the lead. Humans should be in the lead in making decisions, and AI should be designed to reinforce human dignity and the common good. That it shouldn't just be used for profit-making purposes and to consolidate wealth. That it should be used for advancing humanity. And he also noted that he's going to be meeting with several AI industry titans at the Vatican, which is, I think, fascinating.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Summoned by the pope. That's something.

Ben Yelin: Right. Yes. I mean, that's an invitation you can't turn down, right?

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: So I think he really does want to engage leaders of some of these big companies, these technologists, in trying to partner with them to add this element of humanity and morality through this kind of moral framework. So really like the big takeaways here is that you have the pope stepping into this global policy debate. I mean, he's weighing firmly on the side of this is something that if unconstrained, could destroy us, and we need proper regulation. It's like almost as granular as him saying I support the EU AI Act, you know? It's something that you can tell he feels very strongly about.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: And that we need AI outcomes to reflect human choices, human governance, human ethics. And it needs to be something that supports human flourishing rather than undermining it. So it's just one of those things where this I think could change the contours of the debate around AI. I don't think the fact that we don't have federal AI comprehensive regulation necessarily has anything to do with the pope. But I think it's a moral voice that is going to end up having a big impact in the debate around some of these issues that we've talked about.

Dave Bittner: Yes, it's interesting. I mean obviously, you know, a global spiritual leader weighing in on this on behalf of all of the members of his religion. Can you imagine folks saying "Hey Pope, stay in your lane?"

Ben Yelin: Yes. I can imagine that. I mean, we've seen that when he's spoken up previously about things like the war in Iran, famously with the president of the United States and his administration.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: There have been disagreements there. You know, I think there is -- with everybody, an inconsistency about "Hey Pope, stay in your lane." I think there are a lot of issues in which people on the left side of the spectrum of the United States would rather the pope stay out of things, like reproductive rights. And there are things where the right in the United States would rather he stay out of things. But I think it's trying to maintain the Catholic church as this moral force, and it's doing so in this area where you wouldn't necessarily expect it to have any institutional expertise, or really any view at all, like I know they weighed in on the Industrial Revolution, but there've been a lot of developments over the past 30 years that they haven't commented on. I'm not aware of any of these papal documents about the internet, or smartphones, or you know, some of the other major technological revolutions going back for most of our lifetimes.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: As the fact that they're weighing in here underlies how serious they're taking this issue, and they're willing to make it something that's very high profile. I mean, as somebody in this leadership position, you have a limited amount of bandwidth to take moral stands. I mean, if you opine on everything, I think the message gets diluted a little bit. So in some ways, you're kind of picking your battles, and the fact that this is one of the battles you wanted to pick, I think is very significant.

Dave Bittner: Yes. I mean, it's fascinating to me that you have, let's say a moral authority, and I'm putting that half in air quotes. But that is his role. And I think when you put that next to the impulse of capitalism, which is full speed ahead, combine that with the impulse of this administration, which we just saw last week, held back -- they had an AI executive order at the ready.

Ben Yelin: Yes. They're about to have an event on it.

Dave Bittner: Right. They delayed it -- reportedly, they delayed it because some of the big tech CEOs got in their ear and said hey, knock it off. Or you know, press pause I guess is probably a more fair way to say it. But -- I mean, I guess we need this, right? I mean, you need the people who don't have any stake in this, like you know, the pope's not getting rich off Bitcoin --

Ben Yelin: That we know of, Dave I saw Godfather three.

Dave Bittner: [laughs] Right, but --

Ben Yelin: Just kidding, by the way.

Dave Bittner: Yes, yes, like -- yes. I don't know. I guess I'm a little caught up in being thoughtful about it, because it is such an outside influence, and yet, is influential. I guess I wonder what is the meeting like, you know, if Mark Zuckerberg and Tim Cook sit down with the pope, how much sway does he have? How reverent do they consider him?

Ben Yelin: That's a really good question. You know, I don't think it would necessarily have the same significance it would have had 50 years ago. I mean, generally as a society in the United States, we are less religious than we used to be.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: I think the influence of the Catholic church, certainly compared to the past several centuries/two millennia, the influence has decreased.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: And so I don't think it has the same cache as it might have had in our parents' generation, where --

Dave Bittner: Right, right, and certainly, you know, things that the Catholic church has been through has eroded their moral authority, to say the least.

Ben Yelin: Definitely. You know, I remember the 1990s when Pope John Paul came to the United States, and would have these revival events at baseball and football stadiums, and they would all sell out. And you know, it was this real, like, very religious experience. Maybe this is my naïveté, but I think the fact that this is the first American pope, and, like, he can literally speak our language, like, this is a guy who grew up in Chicago. You know, his brother still lives there and is also a big White Sox fan and a seemingly, like, normal guy. I think maybe that has more of an impact than the previous pope, who's from Argentina, or the one before that who's German, or the one before that who's from Poland.

Dave Bittner: Yes. You know what's interesting about that is, I have asked many of my Catholic friends whether or not the pope being American has taken away some of his mystique. And they've all said it has.

Ben Yelin: Interesting.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Yes.

Ben Yelin: Interesting. Just like it feels weird to worship?

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: [speaks with accent] Somebody who just grew up on the south side of Chicago.

Dave Bittner: Right, exactly. Like you know, you want the -- I don't know. And they sort of wonder about it themselves, but when asked, they agree. They're like yes, it's not quite as special that he's American. Like, he's too much one of us.

Ben Yelin: Yes. I can understand that perspective. I mean, I do think he can speak to the United States in a way that previous popes could not.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: I don't know if he's going to do that. I mean, I don't know if he's like going to go to DAVOS or Aspen Ideas Festival and give a speech about AI.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: I mean, it's hard to make news in this news environment. But I do think, like, if you have the technologists on one side, and on the other side, you have a bunch of, you know, hippy dippy people who have always been skeptical of new technology, and have warned about all the pitfalls of every technological innovation over the past 30 years, like it doesn't have the same cache as --

Dave Bittner: The people who had bumper stickers that said "Kill Your Television."

Ben Yelin: Right. And I knew a lot of -- I grew up in San Francisco, and knew a lot of those people.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: You know, who think that every new technology is going to turn into Terminator 2. I just think, like wow, you know, the pope. That carries a certain level of significance that I think might make this something different. And the fact that he's now going to have a captive audience with big tech titans. And they at least have to sit there and pay attention to him. And maybe some message can get in there about putting the brakes on this until -- or at least putting guardrails around this before it does start to destroy our humanity. And I actually think that tech CEOs are going to be receptive. I mean, some of them are the most --

Dave Bittner: Do you?

Ben Yelin: Well, I think like some of them have -- I don't want to say they've fear-mongered on AI, but they've given some of the most grave warnings about the long-term impacts of this technology, even though they're the ones who own the capital.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: So I think --

Dave Bittner: Right. They have grave warnings while they're building their island bunkers [laughs].

Ben Yelin: Yes, exactly. Grave warnings while they purchase their as they purchase their sixth house.

Dave Bittner: Warnings are for the rest of us, and their rocket ships to Mars.

Ben Yelin: Right. Yes. They have the out of the rocket ship to Mars.

Dave Bittner: That's true, right.

Ben Yelin: The rest of us have to live here. And we don't even have a hyperloop, Dave.

Dave Bittner: No.

Ben Yelin: So.

Dave Bittner: No.

Ben Yelin: Yes. I'm curious to see how this meeting goes and, like, if we'll actually look back on this the same way historically we look back upon the 1891 encyclical, which was entitled "Rerum Novarum." I'm sure I'm butchering the Latin pronunciation, called "On New Things" by the previous Pope Leo, Pope Leo the Thirteenth, which addressed the challenges of the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century. I think that he has made this one of his signature initiatives, and we've tried to cover the political and legal angles around AI. I think this is just another very powerful voice.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Yes. What an interesting --

Ben Yelin: I would not have considered before I read these news articles.

Dave Bittner: Right, right. Yes. What an interesting sphere of influence. And you're right, it's not one that we talk about really ever [laughs].

Ben Yelin: Right.

Dave Bittner: But it is -- it's real.

Ben Yelin: It's real.

Dave Bittner: Yes. So we'll see how it plays out.

Ben Yelin: My in-laws, they're a lot of very religious Catholic members, and you know, they take a lot of pride in the pope.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: Despite everything that's happened. And I think there are a lot of people like them in the United States. More than you would expect. So I'm very curious to see what impact this has.

Dave Bittner: Right. So how much does the pope's guidance on this then trickle down to the Catholics in the community who then say to their representatives this is what we believe, and so please respect our wishes?

Ben Yelin: Yes. Yes. Or if this comes up in some of the major policy debates we're going to have.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: You know, when a state reconsiders a law on employment rights and employment practices and anti-discrimination laws against the use of AI for hiring tools in HR, like, is somebody going to invoke the papacy during the debate on these issues and say, like, one of my sources of authority, moral authority on this, is His Holiness Pope Leo. Like, I'm curious to see if that becomes an element of the debate here.

Dave Bittner: Yes. I guess the flip side is you have a president who doesn't have reverence for anyone.

Ben Yelin: He has reverence for one person, yes.

Dave Bittner: That's true. That's true. I stand corrected. But as we've seen you know, the president will not hesitate to go after the pope. So.

Ben Yelin: No. And I'm curious, as you've said, given what's happened with the executive order last week, we might get some mean tweets.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: I'll be watching out for it.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Wow. What an interesting time.

Ben Yelin: Sure is! Sure is.

Dave Bittner: My story this week does not have to do with the pope [laughs]. It has to do with CISA and --

Ben Yelin: You couldn't find a pope-related story, Dave?

Dave Bittner: No, sorry. There's only one real pope- and AI-related story. There's only one and you scooped it up and you beat me to it, so. So CISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, they've had their challenges over the past few years.

Ben Yelin: For sure, yes.

Dave Bittner: And just, you know, a lot of cuts to their personnel, a lot of budget cuts. And really the source of this is -- and I will -- I guess I'll editorialize a little bit here -- that the president still seems to hold a grudge against the organization.

Ben Yelin: Yes.

Dave Bittner: Ever since the previous election.

Ben Yelin: Aftermath of 2020.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Because CISA, the CISA director at the time said that this was a fair election. And obviously, the president to this day still disagrees with that assessment.

Ben Yelin: And fired Krebs the minute he said that.

Dave Bittner: Fired Brian Krebs [phonetic] famously by tweet. So it just seems like that animosity lingers on, but the flip side of that is that CISA's mission is very important to our national security. And the work that they do is very important to our national security. So I got a story here from CyberScoop that was written by Greg Otto, and it's about this bipartisan push that CISA needs more money; they need more resources. That their mission is too important to be under the kind of pressure and scrutiny that they're under. This was a bipartisan movement from Representative Don Bacon, who is a Republican from Nebraska, and Representative James Walkinshaw, who's a Democrat from Virginia. They were on a panel at the National Cyber Innovation Forum, and they both agreed that this needs to change. That CISA needs better funding and that these cuts are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Ben Yelin: Yes. I'm worried about the future of this effort, just because Don Bacon, who is a really excellent member of Congress from Nebraska, a Republican. He's retiring at the end of this Congress. Represents a very competitive district. So we might lose his voice on this, and his voice has been very important, not just on this policy debate, but other debates on tech policy and even elements of foreign policy. So that's one concern I have. The other is just how hallowed out -- I mean how big of a hill we have to climb because of how hallowed out -- hollowed out CISA has become over the past year-and-a-half. Even before the proposed fiscal 2027 budget, which would cut CISA funding significantly, this article says between $361 and $707 million. DOGE really had a huge impact on CISA, and some of the budget negotiations over the past year as well.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: There are some estimates that CISA lost roughly a third of its workforce, and multiple divisions within the agency have shuttered since January 2025. That might be one of those things where people don't notice until the cyber event we've all been warning about for the past 20 years, once that happens, I think it's going to become very obvious that this information-sharing agency doesn't have the capabilities that it had a couple of years ago. Especially when it comes to things like protecting critical infrastructure, heading off sophisticated cyber attacks from technology like Mythos. Like, we're in a new era where the threats have increased. They're more ubiquitous. To not have the full expertise of this agency at our disposal, it's a great cause for a bipartisan crusade.

Dave Bittner: Yes. I have a quote from the article here. The article reads, the case for a well-resourced CISA, the two lawmakers said, rests on the fact that most of the entities targeted by foreign actors cannot defend themselves on their own. Walkinshaw drew on his work during his time as a county supervisor in Fairfax County, Virginia, where he worked with Fairfax Water. He said that even as that utility was one of the most sophisticated, well-funded, water authorities in the country, it struggled to keep pace with the volume and sophistication of attacks. Smaller utilities, towns, and businesses he said have no realistic path to defending themselves against a nation-state. I think that's kind of the core of the thing here, is that our critical infrastructure, so much relies on the work that CISA does, and partnering with organizations like the FBI. But just the information-sharing and the defending that CISA does, it's just -- it's a head-scratcher to me that this would be an area that has seen so much cutting. And the only justification that I see for it is again, the animosity that the administration has for CISA. To me, that's just so short-sighted.

Ben Yelin: Yes. And it's not just CISA, you know, because there are a lot of other what I think are very worthy programs that have faced similar levels of attacks, that if I were going in and designing ways to cut the federal budget, I wouldn't touch with a 10,000-foot pole.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: CISA being one of them.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: But things like PEPFAR, the foreign aid program that's a very cost-effective way that's largely alleviated the AIDS burden in Africa.

Dave Bittner: Right, right.

Ben Yelin: Some of these cuts don't make any sense. They're not -- they haven't made a dent in our federal deficit or debt, and they're pennywise, pound foolish; because what would really be economically devastating is a major cyber attack against our critical infrastructure.

Dave Bittner: Right.

Ben Yelin: Where we're taking down power girds, and water systems, and all of that stuff. So yes. I don't think the administration, besides the grievances of the president, I don't think they've laid out an actual rational besides just saying like, we need across-the-board cuts in the interest of deficit reduction. But it's not really -- I mean, the rest of the budget isn't really a deficit reduction document. Like, there would be huge increases for some of the president's own political priorities.

Dave Bittner: Yes.

Ben Yelin: So it's just clear that this is something, whether it's because of the post-election fallout, whether it's incidental because of what happened with the DOGE cuts and it's just been hard to rebuild staffing, the fact is that this agency is weakened beyond what we thought possible prior to January 2025, and in speaking to people who are in the know about this stuff, especially at the state level, I mean I think there's an added sense of urgency that we need to maintain state infrastructure around things like information-sharing and analysis centers. Because if you thought in 2024 that you could rely on CISA as an information-sharing partner, you're just not able to rely on that anymore.

Dave Bittner: Yes. I think also that there's this notion of the brain drain that CISA has seen. And I've heard this talked about with people I talked to at the FBI as well, where the way I phrase it is this is a really challenging time to be a good-faith public servant right now. And you know, you want the best of the best at an organization like CISA to protect our nation. And there are people who are drawn to that mission. And in being drawn to that mission, one of the things that they give up is the pay that comes from working in the private sector. And if you're someone working for the government, giving up those pay opportunities in exchange for your dedication to the mission, it's a lot harder to do when you feel like you're not being supported at the top levels, and you're being frustrated by not having the resources you need. You know, on one side, everyone's saying oh, we must protect the nation. On the other side, but we're going to cut your budget to do that.

Ben Yelin: Yes, and a third of your colleagues no longer work for the agency.

Dave Bittner: Right, right. So you can see the people who have the talent, it's more tempting to go to the private sector when you're not being supported and respected in the way that you should be.

Ben Yelin: And this is the sector that probably has the most lucrative private sector jobs out there, like compared to almost any other federal department.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Or maybe the gap, you know between -- yes. Yes.

Ben Yelin: Because it's still an emerging, thriving industry. Yes. It's just really unfortunate. And I don't think it's going to be easy to rebuild, because as you said, so much of it is the drain of institutional knowledge that had been built up over a long period of time, that spanned presidential administrations, where you had very talented career civil servants. And when you lose people like that, you can't just say, like, well okay, come January 2029, the whatever administration can just rebuild CISA from the ground up, and it'll, you know, just take a week or two. Like that's just not the way it's going to happen.

Dave Bittner: Yes. It's about building trust.

Ben Yelin: Yes.

Dave Bittner: Right? If these --

Ben Yelin: And credibility.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. These things that were formerly -- had bipartisan support and were kind of touchable, that's not the case anymore. And that just makes it harder to build a solid organization.

Ben Yelin: I wonder if somebody besides Representative Bacon will take up this cause on the Republican side, and frankly, it has to be somebody who is in Trump's good graces. Because I do think that has an impact. If it's one of his allies coming to him and saying, like, hey, this is really important, he might not say yes 100% of the time, but I think it would have a better chance.

Dave Bittner: Right. Yes.

Ben Yelin: Be like Bacon who's already gone against him on other issues.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Mr. President, you don't want to be the guy who's in charge when the grid goes down.

Ben Yelin: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Dave Bittner: [laughs] That would probably resonate.

Ben Yelin: That would be very bad.

Dave Bittner: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Alright. Well, we will have a link to that story from CyberScoop in the show notes, and of course we would love to hear from you. If there's something you'd like us to consider for the show, you can email us. It's caveat@N2K.com. And that is our show, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to caveat@N2K.com. This episode is produced by Liz Stokes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. The show is mixed by Tre Hester. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. I'm Dave Bittner.

Ben Yelin: And I'm Ben Yelin.

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.