Hacking Humans 12.22.22
Ep 225 | 12.22.22

How to avoid Instagram scams.


Jessica Barker: But we see lots of other people being influencers and getting free stuff. So my time has come, right? Unfortunately, most likely not.

Dave Bittner: Hello, everyone. And welcome to the CyberWire's "Hacking Humans" podcast, where each week we look behind the social engineering scams, phishing schemes and criminal exploits that are making headlines and taking a heavy toll on organizations around the world. I'm Dave Bittner. And joining me is Joe Carrigan from Harbor Labs and the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute. Hello, Joe. 

Joe Carrigan: Hi, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: Got some good stories to share this week. And later in the show, Carole Theriault returns. She's speaking with Dr. Jessica Barker, co-founder of Cygenta, about Instagram scams. All right, Joe, before we jump into our stories here, a little quick follow-up. What do you got for us? 

Joe Carrigan: So Dave, you've read in the news - I think you've even reported on it - that Apple is being sued by two women who are alleging that they have not done enough to stop them from being stalked with Apple AirTags. 

Dave Bittner: Right. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Now, Apple is not unique in this space. In fact, the devices are actually pretty handy. And I've talked to a number of people who say they use them, and they enjoy using them and they're great. One great use case, legitimate use case, is you put one in your luggage... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...When you travel. So when you get to where you're going, your luggage isn't there, you can show the luggage person, you know, the person who never has a good day at work... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: ...Who has to handle all the missing luggage complaints, where your luggage actually is. I think that's a good use case. But it's also capable of tracking people's locations. If I hide, surreptitiously, an AirTag on your car, you may never hear the little beep that says, hey, you're being pinged by the AirTag, right... 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Because it might be in your trunk. It might be too quiet. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: It might be in your wheel well. It could be anywhere. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: So these women are suing Apple. But I wanted to tell everybody about an app. It's called AirGuard. And I'm - I have it installed right now. 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: It is developed by some academic institution. And I'm sorry that I can't remember which one it is right off the top of my head. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) OK. 

Joe Carrigan: But it is by an academic institution. But you can - what it does is it looks around you all the time, every, like, 5 minutes or so, looking for things like AirTag and Tile. And, like, look, Dave, I have no devices that have been tracking me. 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: But I can also do a live scan of my area. 

Dave Bittner: Oh. 

Joe Carrigan: So let me see if I can do - oh, here it is. Right down here at the bottom, it says manual scan. 

Dave Bittner: All right. 

Joe Carrigan: And look at the little graphic. It's a little - couple of circles... 

Dave Bittner: It's scanning all right. Yeah. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: It is. Do you have an AirTag in this office? 

Dave Bittner: No, not that I know of. 

Joe Carrigan: Oh. Well, let's find out. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: I was kind of hoping that you did, being an Apple guy. 

Dave Bittner: I know. I have several. My wife is all-in on AirTags, so we have many of them. She has them on her keychain. And I know we have many around the house. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. No devices were found here. 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: So it does an active scan. And it will also let you know if it starts seeing - because it keeps track of your geolocation as well, keeps most of your information private. It does report stuff up for research, but it's - not anonymized, but, you know, it's de-identified. I don't know if you are concerned about that. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: It - I don't think it keeps tracking data. I think it only keeps, like, incident data. So it's - if it sees an AirTag as you move on a regular basis, it'll let you know. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And it's called AirGuard. 

Dave Bittner: And, well, Apple does that automatically. So for example, as I was saying, my mom - not my mom. (Laughter) Sorry, dear. My wife... 


Dave Bittner: I'm sleeping on the couch tonight. 

Joe Carrigan: (Laughter) Right. 

Dave Bittner: My wife has lots of AirTags. And my phone will occasionally ping me and say, hey, you know, there's some AirTags that are showing up pretty regularly around you, just so you know (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: So if you're on an iOS device, it keeps an eye out for that. But that Android - I'm looking up to see if AirGuard is available on iOS. It is. Let's see here. AirFinder. Bluetooth Inspector. Air Guard. Health and fitness - oh, that's interesting. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: I don't think it's the same app as what you're describing here. So - but there are - yeah, Air Tracker, Bluetooth - so there's a lot. Tracker detect. So there are a lot. Device Tracker, Air Tracker. So yeah, it seems like a hot category right now (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: It does, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's good. 

Joe Carrigan: So one of the problems is, if you are an Android user and you're being stalked by somebody who's using AirTags, it'll never show up unless you put one of these apps on... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Which, you know, it's one of the, I guess, detriments to not being in the Apple cult. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: But - and I call it a cult. But really it's a - you know, in the Apple community. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: I tend to be dismissive of - (laughter). In other news, Dave, WTNH up in Connecticut is talking about a new USPS scam that is a text message scam. You get a message saying, hey, we couldn't make a delivery. And then they want to charge you $3 for a confirmation code or something. So what this is, is it's just a quick scam to, No. 1, maybe get three bucks from you because you're expecting it. But also, No. 2, to steal your credit card information and validate that the credit card is chargeable... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...So that people can sell it, then, on the market, on the dark markets. So don't do that. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: You're going to see these all over the place this time of year. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, 'tis the season. 

Joe Carrigan: Yep. 

Dave Bittner: It'll be in all that holiday package delivery noise. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, they're hiding in there. All right, well, let's jump into our main stories here. My story actually comes from Mastodon. So Joe, have you checked out the Mastodon? 

Joe Carrigan: I have. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah (laughter)? 

Joe Carrigan: Yes - big fan. They're, like, a metal band. Are you talking... 

Dave Bittner: No, no (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: Oh, not that Mastodon. 


Dave Bittner: So we're in the midst of what many are describing as a Twitter implosion. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: And it just seems to be getting worse and worse. 

Joe Carrigan: Mastodon is essentially a clone of Twitter that's distributed, right? 

Dave Bittner: Correct. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: The term of art, I believe, is federated. 

Joe Carrigan: Federated. 

Dave Bittner: So you have a lot of different servers. It's decentralized. 

Joe Carrigan: Correct. 

Dave Bittner: And so you choose your Mastodon server to be your home. And then you can communicate with all the other Mastodon servers. So it... 

Joe Carrigan: I have a Mastodon account somewhere. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Well, I started one up a few weeks ago, and I am winding down my Twitter account. I've locked it. And I've removed the app from my phone. So I still... 

Joe Carrigan: Now, how do you feel after removing the app from your phone? Are you feeling better? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, I do. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: I feel good about it mostly because I have seen a market decrease in the quality of Twitter. The level of interactions has gone way down. Many of the people who I used to follow have left. So the signal-to-noise has gotten worse. 

Joe Carrigan: You know what I hope? 

Dave Bittner: What's that? 

Joe Carrigan: I hope Elon Musk buys Facebook next. 


Dave Bittner: That's right. That's right. And also, I'm seeing a huge increase in people trying to slide into my DMs with just all sorts of scams. 

Joe Carrigan: Really? 

Dave Bittner: And I didn't used to see those. And now they're - like, everybody wants - hey; free - you know, you are on the ground floor of this new crypto thing. Congratulations. So... 

Joe Carrigan: (Laughter) Right. Since FTX crashed, we're... 


Dave Bittner: Yeah. So I'm seeing a lot of that. But just the level of discourse, what I found are the - I refer to them, to use your term derisively... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Is reply guys. 

Joe Carrigan: The reply guys, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: And they're just - they're higher up in the comments than they ever were before. And so it's just not pleasurable anymore. So I've locked down my account, and I have moved over to Mastodon. And there are some nice migration tools, if you want to do that, that are out there. So do check those out. But anyway, I was over on Mastodon. And I saw a thread from someone who goes by Emerson, and it's @em0@hachyderm.io. 

Joe Carrigan: Hachyderm. 

Dave Bittner: Hachyderm, which I like. That's actually the server I'm on... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Which is a server, well, catering to people in tech. 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Dave Bittner: Seems to be running very well. And I found this to be a very interesting thread, and it's about this person's smartphone being stolen. I'm going to read through it here. I think there are some good lessons. It starts off, and they say, (reading) what happens to your smartphone when it gets stolen? I recently had my iPhone stolen while on a business trip in London and, through the wonders of Find My, have been able to track its journey in the past few weeks. I found it to be a fascinating insight into what appears to be a rather sophisticated phone theft operation. And I thought I'd share. 

Dave Bittner: First, the theft - I was walking to my office and ended up waiting at a crosswalk on Oxford Street. I suppose every tourist must learn the hard way not to do this, but I thought I'd reply to a text and pulled out my phone. Not even 30 seconds later, someone on a bicycle zoomed by and snatched my phone straight out of my hands. By the time I had processed what happened, the person was already two blocks down, and I knew my phone was gone. Clearly, the thief was a pro at this. Joe, what do you think of this so far? 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the British like to make fun of us Americans. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: But they have their own crime problems, and this is one of them. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) OK. 

Joe Carrigan: Granted, nobody got killed here, but... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Right. Right. They go in and see... 

Joe Carrigan: I'm sure that guy will get a stern talking to if he's ever caught. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. They say - yeah, that's right. You can't eat your meat - you can't have your pudding if you don't eat your meat. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: He says, (reading) since I had iMessage open when my phone was stolen, my first panic was, oh, no, my phone is unlocked. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) This meant they could poke around my photos, notes, text messages, Venmo if they kept my phone unlocked. They said, I sprinted back to my hotel and pulled up Find My on my MacBook. I set my phone to lost mode and initiated a remote wipe and prayed it would go through. The Find My UI isn't particularly intuitive here, but it looks like it went through a few minutes later. And he says, pro tip - enable Find My. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: So this this is Apple's system for being able to basically geotrack your various iOS devices, and it works pretty well. 

Joe Carrigan: Google has one, too... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...For their Android devices. 

Dave Bittner: Excellent. So they go on to say, (reading) I was able to track my phone on Find My and watch this person zoom all around London. It was actually crazy how fine-grained the tracking was. I watched them go all the way down Oxford Street through several tube stops - that's the British word for the subway, Joe. 

Joe Carrigan: That's right. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Circle around touristy areas a couple of times... 

Joe Carrigan: Oh, he's snatching more phones on the way. 

Dave Bittner: That's what he says. 

Joe Carrigan: Probably had a backpack full of phones. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: He says, (reading) I assume they were snatching phones from folks as naive as I and can't imagine how many phones they must have gathered. Eventually they called it a night and ended up somewhere in Tottenham, which I presume is where they live. I stopped live tracking for the day as well. I thought this was just some basic theft and would result in my phone getting sold on Facebook marketplace and that would be that, but no. It turned out to be far more sophisticated. 

Dave Bittner: Second, the phishing text messages - on the second day, every one of my emergency contacts received the following text message. And the text message says, dear Emerson, your iPhone 13 Pro has been found - view location. Apple Support. For context, if an iPhone is found - or for context, if an iPhone is Find My-enabled and remotely wiped, it cannot be reactivated without the original Apple ID login. So unless they have my Apple ID, my phone is a brick to them. This was a step up from what I was expecting. So the thieves are text messaging everyone in the emergency contacts, trying to get that unlock code, right? 

Joe Carrigan: I see. 

Dave Bittner: Said, I also noticed my phone had moved to a different location, which suggested this must be a coordinated theft operation. By this point I filed a police report, filed a business travel claim, and left it at that. I checked in every few days, and my phone stayed in the exact same location, so I assumed it had been scrapped for parts as they had not gotten my Apple ID login in over a week. 

Dave Bittner: But this morning my phone is in China. It had been over a month, and I had long assumed my phone was scrapped. But this morning I got an email saying the activation lock on my stolen phone was requesting my password. I opened up Find My to see where my phone was, and it's in Shenzhen, China. Wild. I assume this is where they must finally get to scrapping my phone unless they have some way to crack the activation code. 

Joe Carrigan: Which they probably do not. 

Dave Bittner: I initially thought this was some basic theft where my phone would get resold as a brick to some poor soul on Facebook Marketplace. But nope, it was way more sophisticated than that with a full-blown phishing attempt and a final ship off to China. 

Joe Carrigan: With another phishing attempt. 

Dave Bittner: Right. And then they say, some pro tips. One - enable Find My on your devices because if your device gets stolen, you're sure as hell going to want to remotely wipe it. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Absolutely. 

Dave Bittner: Absolutely. Two - if you're traveling, ensure you have a way to access Find My from your hotel. This could be a laptop or an iPad you leave at the hotel. I think this is a really good point... 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...Because if you're traveling and you just have the single device... 

Joe Carrigan: And they steal it... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...You're hosed. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. I mean, I suppose you could find web access. You could go somewhere - go to your local electronics store that has a computer, and you could log in, and you could wipe it that way. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: But that's going to take time. 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. 

Dave Bittner: Three - be wary of who you list as your emergency contacts, as it appears a thief can view them even if your phone is put into lost mode. Be wary of any text messages you receive after your phone is stolen. And do not make your phone, or anything really, a single point of failure while traveling. 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. 

Dave Bittner: He says, I normally use my phone as my hotel key, and thank God I had brought my physical keycard with me that day, else I could not have gotten to my laptop as fast. 

Joe Carrigan: I never do that. 

Dave Bittner: For me, every minute my phone stayed unlocked meant another minute for the thief to do damage. And finally, don't text while waiting at a crosswalk in London. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) I would say - yeah, this could happen anywhere... 

Joe Carrigan: It could, yeah. 

Dave Bittner: ...Right? I mean, it's more likely in a big - in a busy city... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...Of course, it's more likely than... 

Joe Carrigan: Sure. 

Dave Bittner: ...In the suburbs. 

Joe Carrigan: I'll bet this happens in New York City all the time. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, I would imagine so. I would imagine so. What are your thoughts on this, Joe? Anything? 

Joe Carrigan: First off, it infuriates me. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: You know, I just get - I mean, I imagine me being this person and having my phone snatched and just being infuriated by it. And just like, oh, like... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Raging. It would - this would piss me off so much. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: You know? 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: So... 

Dave Bittner: Suddenly there's a new heat signature from space... 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Exactly. 

Dave Bittner: ...That there wasn't, and it's the steam coming out of your ears. 

Joe Carrigan: And it's my head, and I look like that red guy from that movie with all the emotions. I can't remember what that was. 

Dave Bittner: Right, right, right. 

Joe Carrigan: But it was... 

Dave Bittner: "Inside Out," yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: "Inside Out." Yes. That was my profile pic on something - I think Disney+ - for a while. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: But the interesting - I'm glad this person kept a really cool head and handled things very well. I like to think that I would do that, but I probably wouldn't. I'd probably just be too furious. But the - I'm really grateful that they went through the process of following this for a month. I am absolutely sure this phone has been parted out. Once they couldn't get the phone to be functional, it was just scrapped... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...For parts. And when you get on Amazon and you look for iPhone parts, this is where they come from. 

Dave Bittner: Right. Right. The only thing I - this makes me wish is that Apple had a remote detonation option (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. Yeah. That thought occurred to me a couple times. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: You know, Dave... 

Dave Bittner: This phone will self-destruct in five seconds. 

Joe Carrigan: ...We could make something that looks very much like a phone (laughter)... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. That's right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...But isn't a phone at all. 

Dave Bittner: That's right. 

Joe Carrigan: And it doesn't have to be an explosive device. It just has to be something that makes life unpleasant, like what Mark Rober does with the... 

Dave Bittner: The glitter bombs. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Package thieves. Yeah, the glitter bombs. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: That'd be good. That'd be good. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: All right, well, we will have a link to this thread over on Mastodon for those of you who want to follow it yourselves. And our thanks to Emerson for sharing this in public. We appreciate that as well. Joe, that's my story. What do you have for us? 

Joe Carrigan: Dave, my story comes from Fox 2 up in Detroit, Michigan. It comes from Rob Wolchek and David Komer. And it's a story of two people who were scammed out of this money - out of money by this guy named David Willett. And what happens is David Willett acts like a connected person. He has all these different connections. And the first person in the story is a woman who is a Ph.D. And in this story, there's a couple things - there's a video that's about 10 minutes long. They did a really in-depth story on this for a local news story. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Ten minutes is a lot of time. But it starts off with her talking about how she had written some scripts, and she wanted to start developing these scripts into media products, either movies or shows or something. So this guy says, well, I have this connection over in England who is Bob Montgomery, which is a very British name, isn't it? Hello, I'm - wouldn't it be Robert? 

Dave Bittner: Robert, yes. 

Joe Carrigan: Hello, I'm Robert Montgomery. 

Dave Bittner: Robert Montgomery the third. 

Joe Carrigan: Please be careful with your phones up here. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: But so he says, here's what we need to do. The first thing we need to do is set up a corporation in Dominica. Right? That's going to cost you 10 grand. So both these people in the story agreed to it. The other person in the story is a software engineer who has a company. And then after that, they need to start paying legal fees. So this Bob Montgomery guy says, you need to start - we need to get some legal fees set up, and that's going to be 50 grand. So it jumps up from 10 grand to 50 grand. 

Dave Bittner: And what would help - slow down a second here... 

Joe Carrigan: OK. 

Dave Bittner: ...Because what are they - what is this person promising in return? 

Joe Carrigan: Twenty-five million dollars, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: Oh, OK. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. It's - that's an excellent question. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: I didn't tell you why these people are just coughing up money. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: But this Willett guy says that this Montgomery guy has $25 million he's looking to loan out to people, and he's not looking to invest in products; he's looking to invest in people, right? 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: So the Ph.D. person, the writer, she actually goes out and borrows money from friends to come up with this $50,000 for legal fees. 

Dave Bittner: Yikes. 

Joe Carrigan: And she does, and she pays it to this law firm in Dominica through... 

Dave Bittner: Air quotes... 

Joe Carrigan: Air quotes. Right. 

Dave Bittner: ...On law firm (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: This law firm. She - yeah, I don't think it costs $10,000 to set up a corporation in a foreign country at all. 

Dave Bittner: I have no idea, but I'll take your word for it. 

Joe Carrigan: I know that I can set up a corporation right here in Delaware, and it will cost me less than $1,000 'cause I've done that. And it doesn't take a lot of money to do that. 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: So setting up a - maybe in the Caribbean because of the fact that you're outside of the U.S. jurisdiction, people take advantage of that and charge a lot of money for it. 

Dave Bittner: Could be. 

Joe Carrigan: I've never set up a foreign company. And I don't know that I ever would. This - as soon as - for me, the first red flag would be, we need to set up a company in Dominica, because I would have been like, no, I don't think I'm doing that. But I like to think I would... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: ...Have been like that. But maybe this Willett guy is really good. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Anyway, he starts asking for more money. He starts asking - the next step up he starts asking for is for $500,000, half a million dollars... 

Dave Bittner: Wow. 

Joe Carrigan: ...To - Montgomery says - or Willett says that Montgomery says he needs the money so that he can buy an insurance policy in case something goes bad and insure the $25 million. I'm not aware of any insurance product that will cover venture capital. Now, maybe there is insurance products out there. I'm sure that insurance companies have the actuary tables for that, and they might charge it. I can't imagine covering venture capital of $25 million for just $500,000. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: I think it would be much more expensive if that was the case... 

Dave Bittner: OK. 

Joe Carrigan: ...So much so that people wouldn't buy it. They'd just go, no, I'm just going to put the money at risk. I'm not going - that's a sunk cost thing. The Ph.D. lady - her name is Lynne - Lynne immediately goes, I think this is a scam, at this point, actually. She's already lost $60,000. And if you watch the video, it's heartbreaking 'cause Liz - or Lynne, rather - has gone out and borrowed money from a friend, and she feels like an absolute chump. But I got to tell you, she has a huge amount of courage. Both these people have a huge amount of courage coming forward, saying, this is what's happened to me. And it takes a special person to do that. Most people just shut up and go, I'm just going to be embarrassed and sit in my hole. These people have come forward and said, here's what happened. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Now, in 2022 - Lynne's problem happened in 2020. In 2022, this guy named Rick, who's a software engineer, comes forward and says, yeah, this guy got me, too, with the same deal - you know, set up the company in Dominica, pay the $50,000 in legal fees. But then for the $500,000, this guy actually borrowed $500,000 from his parents, flew to London to give it to Montgomery but was met by Willett's son, also named Willett, Willett the younger, who then allegedly took the money and gave it to Montgomery. And then, after some period of time, they get the news that Bob Montgomery's dead. He's gone. He's dead. 

Dave Bittner: Oh. 

Joe Carrigan: And the - it's not really clear what's happened beyond this. So Rob Wolchek, who is the reporter on this, actually finds David Willett and accosts him as he's coming out of some building and starts talking to him and gets this guy to talk. And the guy's story is, I was just connecting these people with venture capitalists so that they could get their money - you know, get their businesses off the ground. Unfortunately, Bob Montgomery died. And his son - I think his name is Daniel Willett- sent an email saying, all we were doing was brokering meetings. We didn't touch any money. I never saw any money. I don't know about that. The story is very interesting. The point of this is that - what's happening here is that these people have an idea that they believe in, and that idea is being exploited by other people to elicit funds from them. 

Dave Bittner: But yes, yes, but by idea, we also mean greed, right? 

Joe Carrigan: Well, I mean, yeah, I guess... 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: ...You could say it's greed. 

Dave Bittner: I mean - yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: A desire for success, let's say. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Let's not use the... 

Dave Bittner: Well, I mean... 

Joe Carrigan: I mean... 

Dave Bittner: ...That's the thing that's making... 

Joe Carrigan: You're... 

Dave Bittner: ...That's short-circuiting their rational thinking. 

Joe Carrigan: You're right, Dave. In fact, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and say greed, but I'm not going to say greed is bad. Greed is a survival mechanism that we have. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Right. 

Joe Carrigan: It's what has gotten us through lean times as humans. The desire for acquiring things, usually food and shelter, is what keeps us alive. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: It's part of our drive. We also have innate drive to help each other as well, which is - sometimes those two things get out of balance. But that's a different story about morality. 


Joe Carrigan: So, yeah, these folks are trying to start a business. They have a product that they really believe in. And they're going - they're looking around for venture capital. But I got to tell you, venture capital, in my experience and my understanding of it, doesn't work this way. You know, when you're going out and you're saying, I'm looking for investors, nobody then says, OK, first I need you to set up a company in a foreign country. The first thing that I think of there is that, OK, somebody is going to be using me as a money mule for laundering some kind of money, and I'm not interested in that. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: I'm not interested in any culpability that may come along with that. That would be where my mind would immediately go. 

Dave Bittner: Right. But if you don't have any experience with these sorts of things... 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, exactly. 

Dave Bittner: ...You can see how... 

Joe Carrigan: I don't think these people have that kind of experience. It's a fascinating video. It's worth the 10-minute watch, especially to watch David Willett when he's being interviewed. I don't know what this guy's deal is. You know, it doesn't - for all I know, he could be a completely legitimate businessman, a member of Fat Tony's Legitimate Businessman Club. But he could also be - this guy could be the scammer. Who knows? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah, well... 

Joe Carrigan: I think he... 

Dave Bittner: ...The money went somewhere. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, the money went somewhere. 

Dave Bittner: So - but I guess it's that much harder to track when it's international. 

Joe Carrigan: It is. That's huge. Now, both of these folks have talked to the FBI. So hopefully there'll be some charges brought or something will be done about this. I don't know who's going to get charged, where it's going to go, what's going to happen. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Who knows? 

Dave Bittner: All right. Well, we'll have a link to that story in the show notes. Joe, it is time to move on to our Catch of the Day. 


Joe Carrigan: Our Catch of the Day comes from a listener named Jay, who sent this in to us. Thank you, Jay. It is from a LinkedIn profile named by - of a guy named Dave Harland, and he got a LinkedIn scam message and just starts having some fun with it. Dave, why don't you play the part of Louise Happy Hayes? 

Dave Bittner: Happy is her middle name. 

Joe Carrigan: Happy is her middle name. And in fact, Dave Harland says when someone with Happy for a middle name walks into your life with a no-brainer investment opportunity, it's hard to say no. 

Dave Bittner: That's true. That's true. All right. I will be Ms. Happy Hayes. 

Joe Carrigan: Yes. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Hi, Dave. It's great to connect with you. 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) Hi, Louise. Cheers for connecting. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Cheers, Dave. I hope all's well with you. 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) I have been better, but I'm taking things one day at a time since the accident. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) I'm sorry to hear that. What happened? 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) Have you ever heard of a country called Spain? I've never been there before, but my friend Sammy asked me to go on holiday there in the summer. So during the last weekend in August, we flew to Madrid and stayed in a lovely hotel overlooking main square. And then one night we got in a taxi to a small family-run tapas restaurant on the outskirts of the city, where the food was divine, except for one dish - a bowl of mini meatballs, the temperature of which could only be described as molten. And because I'm such a greedy guts, I gobbled three of the thermonuclear little nuggets straight into my mouth without blowing on them first and subsequently burnt through the mucous membranes in my cheeks, leading to months of agonizing ulcers, which have severely affected the way I eat, speak, drink, chew, sing, whistle and lick and howl. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Are you serious? 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) Astonishingly so. But the accident has taught me a very valuable lesson. Never travel to unfamiliar countries. How are you, Louise? 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) I'm fine. Just finished setting up my Christmas tree. 

Joe Carrigan: And there's a picture of a lovely Christmas tree in front of a nice snow-covered background. And Dave says, (Reading) Oh, wow. That is fantastic. Please be careful with the fairy lights, though. Five years ago, our pet gopher Keith chewed through the cable of our lights, and I suffered a fatal electric shock. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Thanks, Dave. Would you like to invest with me in the stock market? 

Joe Carrigan: (Laughter) This is great. From a fatal electric shock through somebody who's sending you messages to just, OK, let's on with the scam, please. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Dave goes, (Reading) Yes, Louise, I would very much like that. It would be the perfect tonic for my endlessly sore inner-face cheeks since the fiery meatball fiasco and my eternal lifelessness since that devastating fairy light incident in which I ceased to exist. How does it work? 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) With the ongoing crypto market, this is the best time to invest, accumulate and grow your portfolio. We operate a mining system that utilizes an advanced mining technique called mining hive. With the help of cloud mining technique and our high-efficiency hardwares, this makes it possible for even a beginner to earn profits through mining without exposure to risks and its energy savings. Are you there? 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) Apologies, Louise. I was taking Keith out for a walk and was accosted in the street by our next-door neighbor Anne and Steve. They're making wild, baseless accusations that Keith has been sneaking into their garbage in the dead of night, helping himself to tempura prawns from their overflow freezer, letting the air out of their bicycle tires and playing inappropriate music on their car radio at an unacceptable volume. But Keith doesn't even like prawns. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) Thanks, Dave. How much are you willing to invest? 

Joe Carrigan: (Reading) Thank you, Louise. I'm willing to invest around $11,684 into your innovative mining system. However, I have four concerns and questions and comments for you. One - how big is the lift to go down into the mine? I am deeply claustrophobic, so small spaces such as lifts, fridges, Toyota Yarises make me go all clammy and tearful. Two - you mention a mining hive. Do you offer protective clothing? I have a morbid fear of bees ever since that Macaulay Culkin scene in the 1991 film "My Girl," so this is nonnegotiable. Three - cloud mining. I'm hideously confused. Enlighten me. Four - I'm intrigued by the energy-saving element. Can this be used to offset my home electricity and gas bills? If so, I'll give Keith his electric blanket back, and maybe he'll stop going to Anne and Steve's garbage to keep warm. That's all for now. 

Dave Bittner: (Reading) With my company, trading cryptocurrency is a flexible way to earn quickly and trade better with the help of an expert and account manager, which I am. And with my company's brokerage firm, it's a great way to make more money and grow your investments exponentially. An investor can sit back and relax and make an investment from the comfort of his or her home. With an investment of .95 Bitcoin, 20,000, an investor is sure to get as a profit over 3.9 Bitcoin, 65,000, in seven days. And, of course, you can start with a minimum amount. That is just an example. That's the power of trading. Dependent on how the system market is on the week, you can even make more or less. All you need to do is create a trading account via one of my private partnership broker platforms and fund it. After an estimated trade period, you can cash out profits. 

Joe Carrigan: Thank you for answering none of my questions, Louise. Very nonhelpful of you. Will you give me a similar lack of support when I'm down in the mine? Also, the idea of sitting back and relaxing after making a $20,000 investment from my-slash-her home fills me with ultra-suspicion. Putting a humongous monetary amount like that on the line will only ever result in nail-bitingly 100-mile-an-hour full-throttle, adrenaline-fueled, body-fluid-erupting mayhem. That's a great way to say it. I would essentially be gambling away all of Keith's inheritance. 

Dave Bittner: Listen; tell me what you really want to know. I think I need to explain more to you 'cause all you listened are not in connection to what I told you. Tell me what you don't understand about my investment strategy, and I will give you another light term. 

Joe Carrigan: Thank you for your patience with me, Louise. I can sense there is an underbelly of frustration, yet you are approaching the conversation with the utmost professionalism, an admirable trait that I look for in all potential future subterranean co-voyagers. Here's a summary of my questions. One, is there a big lift? Two, do you provide sting-proof clothing? Three, WTF is cloud mining? I thought clouds were just floaty water. Four, can I offset energy savings in my home? Five, are you always this unhelpful? Six, will you look after Keith for us when we go on holiday in Spain together in January? If so, make sure you've taken your fairy lights down. 

Dave Bittner: I don't take care of animals. Is Keith an animal? 

Joe Carrigan: And this goes on for another, like, five slides. 


Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And Dave has done a really good job. We'll put a link in the show notes to this thing, and you can finish it up. But eventually, Dave frustrates this scammer to the point where they stop responding, which is great, which is awesome. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Eats up some of their time. 

Joe Carrigan: Yes, he eats up some of their time. Thank you, Dave. Thank you for posting this. It is hilarious. I love the part about Keith, your gopher. Nobody has pet gophers. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) Right, right. I - you know, my brother had a roommate who had a prairie dog. 

Joe Carrigan: A prairie dog? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. Evidently, you're not allowed to have prairie dogs as pets anymore. But he - at this - at the time when he had one, you could have a pet prairie dog. He was very cute. 

Dave Bittner: All right. We would love to hear from you. If there's anything you'd like us to consider for the show, you can email us. It's hackinghumans@thecyberwire.com. 

Dave Bittner: All right, Joe, it is always a pleasure to welcome back Carole Theriault to the show. 

Joe Carrigan: It is, indeed. 

Dave Bittner: And it is doubly pleasurable this week because joining Carole is Dr. Jessica Barker. She is co-founder of Cygenta. And they are talking about Instagram scams. Here's Carole Theriault and Dr. Jessica Barker. 

Carole Theriault: Well, listeners, a treat today - we have friend and colleague - can I say colleague? I don't know if I can. 

Jessica Barker: Sure. I think you can. 

Carole Theriault: Yeah? 

Jessica Barker: Yeah. 

Carole Theriault: Friend and colleague, Dr. Jessica Barker. She's co-founder of Cygenta, an expert cyber trainer. Welcome to "Hacking Humans," Jess. 

Jessica Barker: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me back. 

Carole Theriault: Well, I'm so happy because I - you may not know this, but I have very recently got myself on Instagram, and I have actually done nothing with it because (laughter) I can't even figure out how to use it. 

Jessica Barker: I know this because I am following you. 


Carole Theriault: That's so - maybe you could give me a hand, just like - I asked a friend, and she says, oh, all you got to do is follow cool people, and then it all works out. And I was like, OK, I don't really... 

Jessica Barker: (Laughter). 

Carole Theriault: So you have pulled together some thoughts on the biggest Instagram scams or the ones that are most common and also some tips on how to avoid them. So I thought you should come on the show and help give me some advice. But I wanted to know first, are you a fan of Instagram? 

Jessica Barker: I am. I do like Instagram. When I started using it, I was a bit - as you've described, I was like, what is this? I don't really understand. 

Carole Theriault: Yeah. 

Jessica Barker: But then I kind of - I think it's kind of fun. I've even started making the odd Reel lately, which is, like, the little videos. 

Carole Theriault: Thank you for explaining. 


Carole Theriault: But, of course, there are some pitfalls in all social media platforms. So maybe you can tell us a few common scams on Instagram. 

Jessica Barker: Yeah, of course. As you say, there's always the drawbacks. There's always the security issues. And over 1 billion people actually use Instagram every month. 

Carole Theriault: Wow. 

Jessica Barker: So, of course, cybercriminals are going to be drawn to it. It's a very popular platform. It's open. It feels very personable. So it's - of course, there's going to be some scammers trying to take advantage of it. And they do this in a few different ways. One of the most common ones is so-called brand ambassador scams. And I myself have received many of these messages. You receive a message on Instagram saying, would you like to be a brand ambassador or an influencer for our company? And often they will be saying they like your profile. They'd like to send you some jewelry or some clothes or some beauty products, whatever it may be. 

Carole Theriault: Right. And you're like, finally, I've made it. 

Jessica Barker: Exactly. I'm an influencer... 

Carole Theriault: Right. 

Jessica Barker: ...Now. But, of course, it does prey on that kind of influencer culture. It preys on flattery. It preys on that fear of missing out, that FOMO. But we see lots of other people being influencers and getting free stuff. So my time has come, right? Unfortunately, most likely not. What is happening here is that the accounts are either trying to trick you into actually buying goods to be an ambassador. So they're saying, we'll send you some free stuff, but you also have to buy some things, or, you just have to pay a shipping fee that happens to be very high. So there, you are not an ambassador. You are being tricked into being a customer. 

Carole Theriault: Wow - yeah, yeah, totally. 

Jessica Barker: Yeah. And even more shady than that is where they say, you're going to be an ambassador. We just need to sign you up. We need your personal data. We need your bank details so we can pay you. And then, of course, they disappear... 

Carole Theriault: Right. 

Jessica Barker: ...With your personal details and your bank details to defraud you. 

Carole Theriault: It's so insidious because you can totally understand that someone wants to verify your identity before doing anything the same way that you want to verify theirs, but they're actually scamming you out of your information. OK. Wow. So brand ambassador - I don't know - scams, I guess they're called, yeah? 

Jessica Barker: Exactly. 

Carole Theriault: So what else do I have to look out for out there? 

Jessica Barker: Of course, those fake investment schemes that we see on all sorts of platforms, these fake get-rich-quick schemes where the scammers will have a profile full of photos of their lavish lifestyle, lots of expensive goods. They're living in amazing mansions. They've got incredible cars. And they say you just need to invest in their scheme, their cryptocurrency scheme or their investment scheme to have the same thing. And some of them will even have websites of, like, full fake data about the investments. But, of course, it's all a scam, and the criminals will disappear with your money after really trying to wring as much money out of you as they can. 

Carole Theriault: Right. OK. And those are the same kind of investment scams that we'll see on other social media platforms as well - interesting. 

Jessica Barker: Yep. And what they do sometimes that's really nasty is they'll be halfway through scamming someone, and they will say, oh, well, actually, if you want your money back, we need you to provide an endorsement video. We need you to do some posts to endorse us, and then we'll give you your money back. So then you find that there are these people posting videos and, you know, pictures saying that they have made money with this investment scheme. So people feel like there's genuine reviews. But it's actually... 

Carole Theriault: Right. 

Jessica Barker: ...People who've essentially had their money held hostage. And, of course, they still don't get it back. 

Carole Theriault: Oh, my gosh. So you're, like, desperate to get your money back. And they say, we'll do this, and we will refund you. 

Jessica Barker: Yeah. 

Carole Theriault: You do it. And then they go, ha ha. 

Jessica Barker: Yeah. 

Carole Theriault: It's, like, a double whammy. 

Jessica Barker: Double whammy. 

Carole Theriault: God. 

Jessica Barker: And then other people see it, and they think, oh, this must be legit because look at all of these people who have verified it. 

Carole Theriault: Yeah, it's too insidious. OK. OK. That's two. Tell me about another one. I'm ready. 

Jessica Barker: (Laughter) I'm scaring you off Instagram. There are, of course, the - kind of the fake giveaway goods and gift card scams. So essentially, we see accounts selling goods that don't actually... 

Carole Theriault: Right. 

Jessica Barker: ...Exist, or they're cheap copies of the real deal. So they'll be ripping off known names, known brands, using all of the branding and really using temptation to cloud our judgment, thinking, this is an amazing deal. 

Carole Theriault: Right. And this is, like, super-important to underline right now because Christmas is a-comin', and people spend a lot of money at the holidays to get that exact gift. And if it's off the shelves, you might turn to somewhere like Instagram to locate it, and you might fall into a nasty trap. 

Jessica Barker: And speaking of current circumstances, we're in the middle of an economic crisis. People are going to be looking to try and make more money and to save money. So it's a really worrying time, I think, in terms of the investment scams and these kind of fake sales, fake giveaway, fake goods accounts. 

Carole Theriault: Right. OK. So I'm really looking forward to getting on Instagram. Is there anything else that I need to worry about? 

Jessica Barker: There are the kind of typical phishing things. You look like you have received a Instagram DM or an email from Instagram itself trying to get you to click a link, a typical thing asking for your username and your password. And they're commonly trying to scare people by looking like an email coming from Instagram saying, you have infringed copyright on your account. Or one I saw - you have one of the - your account has been voted one of the worst accounts on Instagram. Click here to see why. And so people are pushed into clicking, and then they're pushed into entering their username and their password, of course, giving your username and your password to criminals. 

Carole Theriault: Wow. OK. So we have gone through a number of different types of scams that are lurking around on Instagram. Jessica, this has been fantastic. Will you come on again next week and give us more information on how we can actually safeguard ourselves against these things? 

Jessica Barker: Absolutely. Just try and stop me. 

Carole Theriault: In the meantime, listeners, you can check out Jessica's YouTube channel, called Dr. Jessica Barker, where she shares loads of cybersecurity tidbits. This was Carole Theriault for "Hacking Humans." 

Dave Bittner: Joe, what do you think? 

Joe Carrigan: Dave I have an Instagram account. This is where all kinds of young, beautiful, attractive women suddenly ask to follow me. Here's the latest one. Her name is Sharon (ph), Dave. Here's a pic - here're some pictures of Sharon... 

Dave Bittner: Oh. 

Joe Carrigan: ...On my Instagram account. 

Dave Bittner: Yes, Sharon. She's quite lovely... 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah, very attractive. I'm sure this... 

Dave Bittner: ...Just like the kind of woman who would be attracted to you. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: What does your lovely wife think of Sharon? 

Joe Carrigan: I don't know that Lisa has an Instagram account or knows that - actually, I never followed Sharon back. I just let Sharon follow me, hoping to get, like, maybe some virus link or something. Who knows? 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: You know? But this is the kind of thing that goes on all the time on Instagram, where these people reach out - oh, and here's another thing on Sharon's Instagram account - sexy cars, Dave. 

Dave Bittner: Oh, right. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. 

Dave Bittner: Pushing all of your masculine buttons (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: Right. Exactly. Not only is she beautiful, but she likes... 

Dave Bittner: She likes fast cars. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Cool cars. Right. 

Dave Bittner: Sure. Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Muscle cars. 

Dave Bittner: Of course. 

Joe Carrigan: Right. 

Dave Bittner: Of course she does. 

Joe Carrigan: I drive a Scion XB, Dave. I'm not really impressed by a muscle car. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) OK. 

Joe Carrigan: It's a 2012, and it has, like, 120,000 miles on it. And I'm going to drive that thing until the wheels fall off. 

Dave Bittner: OK. Fair enough. 

Joe Carrigan: And just because I'm not a car guy... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Right? I'm just not a typical car guy. But let's get back to this - the Instagram talk. I don't - I mean, I get Instagram. I just never see what's on it. I don't - so I don't post a lot of things on it. I have posted stuff on it in the past, obviously, because it's there, but I haven't posted anything in years. The brand ambassador scam - that's a good scam, I think. Yeah. It preys on the dreams and delusions of younger people who believe they're going to be influencers. And why shouldn't they be influencers? I think Dr. Barker even says that in the interview. Why shouldn't this happen to me? It happens to everybody else. Why shouldn't I also get this? 

Joe Carrigan: So what do they do, then? They say, OK, well, buy the product and talk about it. Great. It's wonderful. It's a scam. You're being tricked into being a customer. Or worse, you're - they're going to say, we're going to send you all this stuff. But in order to do that, we're going to need your tax information because this is essentially income. Right? 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: That all makes sense, right? If I'm going to be giving you income, I'm going to need your tax - that's kind of like an employment scam here. And then, of course, they just go out, and they steal your information and maybe do some identity theft with it. It's terrible. Crypto scams. Big crypto scam recently - this FTX thing. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Huge. That is - I don't know what's going on in there. Was it a Ponzi scheme? Was it just a scam? I don't know. That's going to be years for us to unravel it. But I like to say a couple of things about investing in crypto. Number one, if you don't own the keys, you don't own the crypto. So if you're putting your crypto in an exchange of any kind - any online exchange - you're putting your crypto in somebody else's custody, that is somebody else's crypto, and you are relying on a promise that they're going to give it back to you. That's it. 

Dave Bittner: And they're not FDIC insured (laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: They're not FDIC insured. Exactly. It's not like a bank, where... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: Yeah. There's no - there's nothing like that. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: And the other thing I say about crypto investing is don't put any money into crypto that you couldn't afford to just walk out into the street and set on fire. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter). 

Joe Carrigan: If you can't afford to do that with that money, if you need that money to pay rent or buy food, don't do that. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Don't buy crypto. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Don't - buy the rent. Buy the - pay your rent. Buy the food. Don't buy crypto. 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: You're not going to make money on crypto. Even if you do make money on crypto, it's not going to be as quickly as your rent is due - not in this market. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. OK. 

Joe Carrigan: There's a constant theme, even from my story today, that once they start scamming you, they're going to take you for all they can. They're going to - even if it's all you have. And we've seen that, where people have - on this show - we've talked about scams, where people have literally lost every penny they had to a scam... 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Because they thought - they didn't realize it was a scam, and they were going after the - they were sucked into the sunk-cost fallacy... 

Dave Bittner: Right. 

Joe Carrigan: ...Or they genuinely believe they were actually making money when they weren't. It's a terrible situation. Validate everything. Don't trust anybody, especially not online. It's really not a good environment. Anybody can be sitting behind that profile you're looking at. You really don't have any idea who it is. What I thought was really interesting was when Dr. Barker was talking about the crypto scams, where they said, OK, if you want to get your money back, you have to do an endorsement video of our product, which they then used to go out and scam more people, and then they never give you the money back. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: I mean, it's - these people are monsters, Dave. It's awful. Anyway, I thought this is a great interview. I do like having Carole Theriault on the show. 

Dave Bittner: Yeah. 

Joe Carrigan: Sometimes when I'm typing and I'm reading what I'm typing, I'm reading it in her voice in my head for some reason. 

Dave Bittner: (Laughter) It's great. Well, yeah - always a pleasure to have Carole bring these stories to us. And, of course, Dr. Jessica Barker - great guest to have as well. So we appreciate both of them taking the time. 

Dave Bittner: That is our show. We want to thank all of you for listening. Thanks to Harbor Labs and the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute for their participation. You can learn more at harborlabs.com and isi.jhu.edu. 

Dave Bittner: The "Hacking Humans" podcast is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies. Our senior producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our executive editor is Peter Kilpe. I'm Dave Bittner. 

Joe Carrigan: And I'm Joe Carrigan. 

Dave Bittner: Thanks for listening.