Security Unlocked 4.7.21
Ep 22 | 4.7.21

The Language of Cybercrime


Nic: (music)

Nic: Hello and welcome to Security Unlocked. A new podcast from Microsoft where we unlock insights from the latest in news and research from across Microsoft's Security Engineering and Operations Teams. I'm Nic Fillingham.

Natalia: And I'm Natalia Godyla. In each episode, we'll discuss the latest stories from Microsoft's Security. Deep dive into the newest threat intel, research and data science.

Nic: And profile some of the fascinating people working on artificial intelligence in Microsoft Security.

Natalia: And now, let's unlock the pod.

Natalia: Hello, Nic. How is it going?

Nic: Hello, Natalia. I'm very well, thank you. I'm very excited for today's episode. We talk with Peter Anaman, who is a return guest. Uh, he was on an earlier episode where we talked about business email compromise and some of the findings in the 2020 Microsoft Digital Defense Report. And Peter had such great stories that he shared with us in that conversation, that we thought let's bring him back. And let's, let's get the full picture. And wow, did we cover some topics in this conversation. I don't even know where to begin. How would, what's your TLDR for this one, Natalia?

Natalia: Well, whenever your friends or family think about cyber security, this is it. One of the stories that really stuck out to me is, Peter went undercover, and has actually gone undercover multiple times, but in this one instance he used the cultural context from his family history, as well as the languages that he knows to gain trust with a bad actor group and catch them out. It's incredible. He speaks so many languages and he told so many stories about how he applies that to his day-to-day work in such interesting ways.

Nic: Yeah, I love, for those of you who listened to the podcast, Peter really illustrates how knowledge of multiple cultures, knowledge of multiple languages, understanding how those cultures and languages can sort of intersect and ebb and flow. Peter has used that as powerful tools in his career. I think it's fascinating to hear those examples. Other listeners of the podcast who, who do have more than one language, who do understand and have experience across multiple cultures, maybe oughta see some, uh, some interesting opportunities for themselves in, in, in cyber security maybe moving forward.

Nic: I also thought it was fascinating to hear Peter talk about working to try and get funds and sort of treasures and I think gold, l-literal gold that was taken during the second world war. And getting them back to it's original owner. Sort of like, a repatriation effort. As you say, Natalia, these are all things that I think our friends and family think of when they hear the words cyber security. Oh, I'm in cyber security. I'm an investigator in cyber security. And they have this sort of, visions, these Hollywood visions.

Nic: This is, that's Peter. That's what he's done. And he's, he talk about it in his episode. It's a great episode.

Natalia: And with that, on with the pod.

Nic: On with the pod.

Nic: (music)

Natalia: Welcome back to Security Unlocked, Peter Anaman.

Peter: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me back.

Natalia: Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you, first time around. So I'm really excited for the second conversation. And in this conversation we really love to chat about your career in cyber security. How you got here? Um, what you're doing? So let's kick it off with a little bit of a refresher for the audience.

Natalia: What do you do at Microsoft and what does your day-to-day look like?

Peter: So in Microsoft, I work within the legal department. Within a group called the Digital Crimes Unit. We are a team of lawyers, investigators and analysts who look at protecting our customers and our online services from, um, organized crime or attacks against the system. And so we, we bring, for example, civil and criminal referrals in order to do that action. On a day-by-day basis, it's very, very varied. I focus more on business email compromise present with some, with some assistance on ransomware attacks and looking at the depths and the affiliates there. As well as looking at some attacks against the infrastructure based on automated systems.

Peter: So it's kind of varied. So on a day, I could, for example, be running some crystal queries or some specialized database queries in order to look for patterns in unauthorized or illegal activity taking place in order to quickly protect our customers. At the same time, I have to prepare reports. So there's a lot of report writing just to make sure that we can articulate the evidence that we have. And to ensure we respect privacy and all the other rules, you know, when we present the data.

Peter: And also, in addition to that, uh, big part of it is actually learning. So I take my time to look at trends of what's going on. Learn new skills in order to know that I can adapt and automate some of the processes I do.

Nic: Peter, as someone with an accent, uh, I'm always intrigued by other people's accents. May I inquire as to your accent, sir. Um, I'm hearing, I think I'm hearing like, British. I'm hearing French. There's other things there.

Peter: (laughs)

Nic: Would you elaborate for us?

Peter: Yes, of course. Of course. Oh so, I was born in Ghana, West Africa and spent my youth there. And later on went to the UK where I learned that, I had to have elocution lessons to speak like the queen. And so I had lesson and my accent became British. So but at the same time, I'm actually a French national. Um, I've been in the French army as an officer. And so, that's where the French part is. And throughout, I've lived in different countries doing for work. Uh, so I've learned a bit of German, a bit of Spanish on the way.

Nic: I, I actually cheated. I looked at your, um, LinkedIn profile and I see you have six languages listed.

Peter: Yes.

Nic: The two, the two that you didn't mention, I am embarrassingly ignorant of Fante? And T-Twi, Twi? What are they?

Peter: Twi and Fante are two of the languages that are spoken in Ghana. They're local languages. And so growing up, I always had that around me. When I went to my father's village where his, we communicate in that language. English is kind of the National Language but within the country, people really speak their own languages. So I've ticked it off now. Can I speak fluently in, in it? No, I've been away for too long. But if you put me there, I would understand everything they're saying.

Nic: What are the roots of those two languages? Are they related at all? Or are they completely separate?

Peter: They are related but one, one person cannot always understand the other. If you look more broadly, you look at for example, the African continent all are, you'll find that there are over, from what we understand, over, what was it? 2,000 languages are spoken on the continent. So sometimes a person, say on the east coast doesn't understand the person in the west coast, you know. And, and it's fascinating because, you know, when we look at cyber crime, we are facing a global environment. Which is actually pretty carved out, right? The physical world is still pretty segmented.

Peter: And so when, for example, investigating some crimes taking place in Nigeria, well they speak pidgin English. And so we have to try and adapt to that to understand, what do they really mean when they say, X or Y? And so, you know, it kind of opens our mind at, as we're doing the investigations. So we have to really try and understand the local reality because the internet is not just one place. And I think, you know, working for, you know, Microsoft and with such an amazing diverse team, we've been able to share knowledge.

Peter: So for example, in the case I mentioned, I went to my colleague in Lagos, Abuja. He went, oh, that's what it means. And we're like, okay great. That one makes a lot more sense. And so we can move on. So we have this kind of richness in the team that allows us to lean on each other and, you know, sort of drive impact. But yeah, language is very important. (laughs)

Natalia: I was gonna ask, do you have any interesting examples in which the culture was really important to cracking in the case or understanding a specific part of a case that you were working?

Peter: Yes. So there was one case I worked on earlier on which was in Lithuania. And in Lithuania, for a very long time, this group had been under investigation but they were very good at their Op Sec and used some, uh, different types of encryption and obsolete, obsolete communication to hide themselves. But what I learned from the chats and when I was, this was in an IRC, it started in IRC channels and then moved out of there afterwards. But I noticed that there was a lot of Italy. There was a lot of Italian references. And my grandfather was Sicilian so I've spent time in Italy. So I kind of understood that they traveled to Italy.

Peter: So in part of the persona, I made reference to Sicily. And I just said, you know, that's where my grandfather's from. And this, didn't give a name obviously, but it kind of brought them closer, right? Because like, oh, yeah we, we get it. And after about two, three months, I was able to get them to send me pictures of them going on vacation in Italy. And unfortunately for them, the picture had geo-location on it. And also, we were able to blow it up to get the background of where they were in the airport and using the camera from the airport, we were able to identify who they were. And then go back to the passport, find their path and they got arrested a few weeks later.

Peter: So but to get that picture, to get that inner information required a kind of, trust that was being built in the virtual world and that comes from trying to understand the culture. By teasing out, asking questions about who are you and what do you like. So that's just one example.

Nic: N-no pressure in answering this question and we'll even, we'll even cut it out of the edit if it's one you don't wanna go with.

Peter: (laughs) Sure.

Nic: If you're good with it. But um, uh, I heard you now talk about personas and identities and y-you just sort of hinted at it in the answer to the previous question. It sounds like some of the work that you have done in the past has been about creating and adopting personas in order to go and learn more information about bad actors and groups out there in, uh, in cyber land. Is that accurate and are you able to talk about what that role and that sort of, that work look like, when you're performing it?

Peter: Yeah. So before you have

Peter: ...persona, you have to understand where that persona's gonna be acted, right?

Peter: And I'll give you an, an example of a story. Once I had to go to LA to give a presentation and when I got to the airport I got a cab. And in the cab I looked at the guy's, the license plate of the, of the person. And I said, I bet you, I can guess, which country you were born in. He was like, an African American kind of person. He goes, impossible. No one has guessed it, you will never know. I was, all right. Are you ready? You're from Ghana. And his mind was blown. He was like, how, how did you pin that to one country? I was like, well, in your name, you have Kwesi. And I know if you're born in a country, in Ghana and have Kwesi, it means you're born on a Sunday. So that fact that you have your, that name there, that means you were born from Ghana. He goes, you are right. And so that was that.

Peter: And I said, I miss some food, the cuisine from my, from, from Ghana. And he goes, oh, I know a great place. It's in Compton. I said, go. Uh, when? So I went into my restroom, showered, go ready, try to g-got into a taxi and he goes, I'm not going into Compton. I was like, well, why not? I wanna go to that restaurant. And he goes, oh, no, no, no. I'm going to get robbed or something bad is going to happen to me. I was like, but it- By the way, he left, he went, I had a great meal. Afterwards, I spent two hours in the restaurant 'cause no taxi would come and pick me up. And eventually, the waitress took me to a local casino. And I got a cab there and I got back.

Peter: Where, where I'm going with this story is about the environment. I didn't know what Compton meant, right? So if I created a persona that went there that didn't know the environment, they would not succeed. They would stick out like a sore thumb. They would, they would fail. So the first idea, is always to understand what are the different protocols.

Peter: If I'm looking at, for example, FTP or IRC, the different peer-to-peer networks. Or I'm looking at NNTP and the old internet, you know. All of those work, you need different tools to work there. Different ways to collect evidence and different breadcrumbs you could leave that you need to know it may be needed. Because when you're there, you're there, right? And it's, you're leaving, you're leaving a mark. Also some people say, use proxies. Well, the problem with proxies that someone could know you got a proxy on. Because well, there's lots of systems out there. So it's about using the system. Understanding how it's interconnected so that when you show up, you show up without too much suspicion.

Peter: The other thing I learned is that the personas have to, have to be kind of, sad. 'Cause what I found is that when they were a bit sad, like, I'm happy with your work and things like that. What I found, that's me, right? I found that people were more interested because people are kind by nature, right? And so when they see that you're sad, they're more likely to communicate with you. While, while if you're too confident, I can do everything. They're like, uh, no, that person.

Peter: So I try to like, psychologically look at ways to make the person as real as possible, based on my experience, right, because if it was based on me, I would be called out. Because I will be inventing a character that's, was not real. If you try to give me a trick question, because it's based on me, the answer's gonna be the same. I've got, the persona is me. It's just different. And so that's how I took my time to understand it. I spend a lot of time learning the internet, the protocols, you know, how does P2P actually work. When I, going to an IRC channel or when I'm looking at the peer-to-peer network and looking at the net flow. So the data which is passing from my computer upload. What other information is flowing.

Peter: Because if I can see it, they can see it, right? And at the same time I have to have the tools. So I was very fortunate to have, for example, some tools that can switch my IP address with any country, like, every minute. So I could really change personas and change location really rapidly and no one would know better 'cause I'm using different personas in different contexts, right?

Peter: Now, I never lie. One of, one of the clear things is that you never, I never try and do anything illegal because I have to assume that law enforcement is on the other side. And that's not what I'm trying to do. So I'm not gonna commit the crime. I'm not going to encourage you to do the crime. I'm just listening and just being curious about you. But then people make mistakes because they share, they over share sometimes without knowing. Maybe they're too tired or something.

Natalia: I have a bit of a strange question. So with the lockdown, culturally, people are expressing publicly that they feel like they're over sharing. Because they're all locked indoors. They have, their only outlet is to share online. So have you noticed that in your work in security? Do, are people over sharing in that underground world as well? Or there, there hasn't been an equal shift?

Peter: No, I, I, I, actually think it's getting worse. Um, and part of the reason is, as more people go online, they're speaking more about how to be anonymous. So for example, I've seen a rapid increase in BackConnect. These are residential IP addresses used as proxies. Well 'cause now they're communicating to each other, saying, hey, we're all online and this is how you can get found out. And so there actually there's more sharing going on. You know, I look at this, many more VPN services out there. It just seems, they're better prepared. Now, obviously, we see a lot more, right? So I'm definitely seeing more sophistication because people are spending more time online. So they, they're not walking around waiting for the bus. They're reading, they're learning, they're adapting. They communicate with each other.

Peter: I've even found like, cyber crime as a service, we've found clusters of groups of people. And when you look at that network, you could see. They're saying, oh, I offer phishing pages or I offer VPN. They become specialized. So now you have people that are saying, I am just gonna focus on getting your, for example, some exploits. Or I'm just gonna focus on getting you, um, some red team work so that you can go and drop your ransomware. You know what, they, they've become more specialized actually because they're online. And they've got the time to learn.

Nic: Peter, you mentioned earlier, some time you spent in, I think, was it the French army, is that correct?

Peter: Yes, that's correct.

Nic: Do you want to talk about that? Was that your foray into security? Did it, did it begin with your career in the army? Or did it begin before then?

Peter: Hmm. I think it started probably before then. In a sense that, once I left high school, I decided I wanted to study law. Because I wanted the system that I was gonna be working in. And so I went to law school, uh, in the UK. And when I came out, unfortunately, the market was not as good. So I couldn't get a job. And when I looked around at what other trenches I had. I found there was an accelerated cause to become an officer in the French Army. It's a bit like, West Point in the US. Or, and so to do that, it was basically two years, it a two year program condensed into four months. It was hard. And so (laughs) I-

Nic: It was what? No sleep? Is that what it was? (laughs)

Peter: Ahhh. I've lived through little sleep.

Nic: No sleep before meals.

Peter: Yeah. I had to, you know, even- Well one time, I even had to evacuated because I got hyperten- you know, uh, hypothermia. (laughs) It was, uh, sort of a character build, character builder, I like to call it that. Uh, but really I think that started the path. Uh, but for the security side was, was after that. So, 'cause of my debts from law school, I, I left the army and I went to, back to the UK. And there, the first job I found was to be a paralegal, photocopying accounts, bank accounts opened between 1933 and 1947. It was part of something called a survey. And it actually had something to do with the Nazi gold.

Peter: So what happened is that during the second world war, a lot of peop- uh, people of Jewish origin, saw that they were gonna be persecuted and took their money to, uh, Switzerland and put them in numbered accounts. And kept the number in their head. While unfortunately, so many of them sadly, uh, were victimized, they died. And the number died with them. Well, the money stayed in the accounts and over time because the accounts were dormant, well, you had charges. And so the money left.

Peter: And so this was something that Paul Volcker, I believe it was, started the survey to get the Swiss banks to comply and give the money back to the families as result. So I was part of a team investigating one of the banks there. And although I started photocopying, I looked at, using my military skills, to be very efficient. So I was the best photocopier.

Natalia: (laughs)

Peter: And uh, and we were five levels underground. And that's what I did and I worked hard. And then after a few weeks, I got promoted to manage, uh, photocopiers. The people photocopying. We were a great team. And after that, they realized I was still hanging around because everyone was sleeping. 'Cause working five levels underground is a bit depressing sometimes.

Peter: And so eventually, I became a data analyst. And so now I had to do the research on the accounts to try and find someone writing in pen, oh, this number is related to this other main account. Or this there piece of evidence is linked to this name. And so basically, for about, I think about three years, I basically, I eventually ran the French team and we looked at all the French cards opened from that period. And that started the investigations and sort of, trying to think deeper into evidence and how to make it work.

Natalia: I really didn't think of myself as being cool before this, but I'm definitely not cool after hearing this. It's been validated, these stories are way beyond me.

Peter: (laughs) Well, no. Just stories.

Natalia: (laughs) So what brought you to Microsoft? That how did you go from piracy investigation to working at Microsoft as an investigator?

Peter: So what took place was actually, my troubles created by Microsoft. So back in 2000 it was Microsoft who actually saw that the internet was becoming something that could really hurt internet commerce and e-commerce of role and wanted to make sure

Peter: But they could contribute to it, and participate by building this capacity. And all the way through, they were one of my clients, at, essentially. And at some point, I realized that in my career, working for different customers, clients is great, because you learn, you don't have something different. So, for example, a software company is very different to a games company. Is different to a publishing company, is different to a mo- motion picture company, although it's digital piracy, it's actually very different in many respects. And I have- I saw how Microsoft was investing more in the cloud at that time, and I saw that as a big opportunity to really help a bigger threat to the system, right?

Peter: And when I say to the system, E-commerce, 'cause everything was booming, this was in like 2008. And so, I decided that I would work for them. And actually, they offered me the job. So, I- I didn't, you know, I'm very privileged to be where I am now. But the, the, the way they positioned it is that they were looking for someone to help develop systems to map out, create a heat map of online piracy. I was like, "Wow, this is a global effort." So, uh, that's what I came on board with. And I built actually, a, a system similar to Minority Report, whereby I got basically these crawlers that I built that would go out and visit all these pirate sites. And you'll find this fascinating 'cause... Well, I found it fascinating, in some cases-

Natalia: (laughs).

Peter: ... as we accessed the forums that we're offering, you know, download sale, RapidShare was one of the companies at the time, as we shut them down, they have crawlers in the forum, which will go and replace them. So, we had machine or machine wars, where we would shut down a URL, and then they would put another one. The problem is that our system was infinite. That is, we can, the machine can keep clicking. For them, they had about 10 groups of files. And so once they reached number 10, that was it. So, I found a way to automate the systems. And then after that using the, the Kinect, do you remember the Xbox Kinect?

Nic: Cer- certainly.

Peter: Managed to hack that, and the way it happened is that I built a map on Bing, whereby the Kinect could look in my body structure. And as I moved my hand, it would drill in to a country. And when I pushed, it would create, like, a, a table on the window with the number of infringements, what products were offered, when was the last time it was detected. And then, I could just wave it away and it would go, and then I could spin the world, it was a 3D map to go to another country and say, "What are the concentrations of piracy?" In this way, we had a visualized way of looking at crime as they were taking place online, and then zoom in and say, "We need to spend more effort here." Right?

Peter: So, as well, just getting data analytics, but in a 3D format. And so, that was part of the excitement when I joined, is how to do that. Another example is, I found that, I read some research where it said that basically humans only spend a minute and a half on any search query. You know, in itself it doesn't mean much. But imagine you have a timer and it's one second, two seconds, three seconds, right? You're waiting for a minute and a half, right? So, 90 seconds, let's double that and say 180 seconds. Basically, let's say three minutes, it means that if you go to anyone you know, and ask them, "Go and search for Britney Spears downloads." And you look too, go, do, do the search, and they will click a link, nothing. Go next, click next, and they'll keep going.

Peter: Before the three minute mark, they'll stop. They'll change the query, they'll do something different. Because they wouldn't get a result. Which means that when you do a search, and a search has got a million results, uh, it doesn't really matter. People are not going to go through the million. So, I started to think about the problems that when executives and people were saying, "Oh, I go on the internet, and I can find bad stuff." I was like, "Okay, but you can do like in three minutes. How about I build a robot that will pretend to be you, and go and find the infringements within that three minute window? Which is about 400 URLs. But I'm going to hit it with like send 100 queries, distributed."

Peter: All of a sudden, we were finding the infringements before anyone could click on it, because we would report it to Google, Bing, Yandex, Baidu. And they would remove it from the, from the search results. And then, we had a measurement system, which would check and see, if I was a human, how many seconds would it take before I found an active download? Right? You could automate it. And so, we had a dashboard that could show that, and it worked. You know, we could, we saw a decline in the number of complaints because, well, it wasn't as visible. Now, if you knew where the pirate bay was, yeah, okay. But that wasn't really what we were doing. We were looking at protecting people from getting downloads which contain malware, or something nefarious, right? And, and, so we built these systems to protect consumers, essentially.

Natalia: So, is there a connection, or maybe a community behind the work that you've done in piracy and the world of copyright? Uh, any, any best practices that are shared with content creators who are equally concerned with a malware being in their content, or just the sheer, the sheer fact that someone is pirating their content?

Peter: I think from a contents per- perspective, and there are several amazing organizations out there, such as the BSA, Business Software Alliance, you have the MPAA, you know, you have the RIAA, and also IACC, the International Anti-Counterfeiting Coalition. Who have just incredible guidance for their members, which are specialized. So, for example, when you look at counterfeit goods, that's a very different thing to like, say, video, because video is distributed in a diff- different way. But one thing, which I think is important is that you don't just leave your, your house open, you lock it with a key, otherwise, someone will just come in and take your stuff.

Peter: So, I think the same with contents, that when we create content, we have to find a way to work not only with different organizations that are looking to protect those rights, but also assume your own responsibility of locking your door. For example, what security could you put on it? Right? To maintain it? And how could you work with law enforcement who are there to protect the law, right? There are, I think there are different things that could be considered but most of it really, I would say the best is to start with the industry association, because they are much more specialized, and can give better advice, depending on the nature of the content that the person has.

Peter: But, you know, when we were looking at online piracy, it wasn't just online piracy, because, you know, Microsoft participated in something called Operation Pangea. This was an Interpol driven operation where we found that a Russian organization that was distributing software for download in the millions of dollars, we took action to dismantle their payment mechanism. So, Visa and MasterCard would stop the payment on their website. So, they moved to prescription drugs, and they started selling prescription drugs. And so, for certain, it's really not in Microsoft's mandate to do that, right?

Peter: But what we did is that we provided the expertise, and the knowledge we have to law enforcement to detect these websites. There were about 10,000 of them, and then drill down to say, "What's the payment gateway?" Because that's a choke point, you know, a criminal, definitely does what he does for the money. You know, you're not gonna rob a bank if there's no money there, right? So, with that in mind, they were able to do really, massively disrupt this organization. And that's because Microsoft looks at providing its expertise, and also learning from other people's expertise, right? But to tackle this bigger problem that impacts all of us.

Nic: Peter, I'd love to circle back to language for a sec here. And when you were talking about the languages that you speak, and, and the importance of understanding culture. From your perspective, do you think there are countries, language groups, ethnic groups that are disproportionately... Well, I'm trying to think of the most elegant way to say, not protected or not protected as well as they could because they speak a language that is, you know, not as prevalent? So, you know, I looked at, you know, I'd never heard of the two, the two, uh, Ghanaian languages that you had on your-

Peter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nic: ... on your profile there, I'm not even gonna say them right, but Fante and-

Peter: (laughs), so, it's Fante and Twi.

Nic: Fante and Twi. So-

Peter: Perfect.

Nic: ... native Fante, and Twi, I'm, I'm assuming there's, there's hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of speakers of those-

Peter: Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Nic: ... two languages?

Peter: Yes, yeah.

Nic: Do AI and ML systems allow for supporting people that, you know, either don't speak English, or a sort of major international language?

Peter: You're touching on something, which is very near and dear to me, 'cause it's a whole different conversation. And if you look at the history of language, there's, a, a great group of seminars written about it. It's actually I think, I believe, somewhere, I read somewhere that 60% of languages are actually not written. Right? And yes, you can go and see Microsoft has, translates between say, 60 or 100 pairs of languages, and Google the same. But what about the others? What about the thousands of others, that I think there are over 6,000 languages in the world. You're right. I mean, earlier this year, if I may be personal, I'm trying to adopt a baby girl. And so, I went to Ghana to try and manage the situation, which is very slow.

Peter: And when I was there, I just saw the reality that, you know, they don't have access to resources, right? Because a book costs money. And so even for AI, how would they even know what AI is? So, I think there is an increasing gap, which is taking place. We can't keep build, building bigger walls, because it's just not going to work. We gotta be, we gotta think bigger than that. And so, one of the ideas is that when we look at some of the criminals, like I've had quite a few of them, a lot of them go to the same technical universities, for example, in West Africa. Well, why is that? It's cause I think they develop skills, and then they leave, and they can't get a job. And so, they end up being pulled into a life of cybercrime. So, culture

Peter: It's I think becoming an important thing is that, there is a bigger and bigger divide 'cause not as many people have access to the resources, and how can we as a community who do have access, sort of proactively contribute to that? 'Cause we can't, there's no way you can, you know, just Nigeria has 190 million people. That's a lot of people, that's a lot people. The African continent has 1.2 billion. Asia, four billion, was like, um, I think it's like, is it two, three billion? No, two billion? Something like that but it's a lot people-

Nic: It's a lot.

Peter: ... outside, right? (laughs). And so I think, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I think it's a- an interesting conversation that we need to develop even, even more.

Natalia: So, just trying to distill some of that down. So, are, are you saying then that, uh, at least when we're looking at language, there is a greater diversity of threat actors than there are targets? That those targets are centralized more around English speakers, but because of disproportionate opportunities in other parts of the world, we see threat actors across a number of different languages, across a number of different cultures?

Peter: Yes. I, I think that's, that's a goo- uh, kind of a good summary of that, but I'll probably take it a step further and say, from my vantage point, again, you know, there are many other more brilliant people out there than me, I can only speak of what I've seen. I still find there are concentrations, right? When you look at business email compromise, and you go and pick up a newspaper and say, "Show me all articles about BEC, the biggest crime right now in the world, and show me all the people who've been arrested." Guess what? They're all from one place, West Africa. Why? Because if you look at the history of that crime, BEC, it was a ruse. Before that it used to be called, it was all under the category of Advanced E-fraud, but it used to be a lottery scam. Oh, the Bill and Melinda Gates lottery, you've won $25 million, or, uh, the Nigerian prince, right?

Peter: Some people call 419 which is a criminal code in Nigeria. And then it went further back, they used to send faxes. Or, a lot of people developed a culture called the Yahoo boys, right? They it called Yahoo-Yahoo. And what they do is you go on YouTube, and you search for Yahoo-Yahoo, you'll see them like there's a whole culture behind that. They're dancing, they say, "This is my Monday car, my Tuesday car." And because they're making money and their communities are not, the community helps them because they get money. The stolen money is shared, and so now it becomes harder to break that because it becomes part of a culture. And so, that's why we see a lot more there I think than for example, in the US, or in Russia or in other countries it's 'cause I think there was, there's a, they have this kind of lead way that they'd be doing it for a lot longer and have a better sense of how to be sly.

Nic: It sounds like the, the principles of reducing crime apply just as generally in the cyberspace as they do too in the, the non-cyber space. Whereas if you can give opportunities and lu- you know, um, lucrative opportunities to people, to utilize the skills that they've developed, both sort of in an orthodox or in an unorthodox fashion-

Peter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nic: ... then they're gonna put those skills to good use. But if you, if you train them up and then don't give them any way of using those skills to, to go, you know, ma- make a living in a, in a positive sense, they're, they're gonna turn to other, other avenues. Sounds like in, in, in parts of West Africa, that is business email compromise.

Peter: Right, it is. And if I could just add two things there, one is that, you know, when I started looking at how to address cyber, online criminality, I have to look at the physical part of it. And in the physical world, there's actually, I call them neighborhoods. You have good neighborhoods, and bad neighborhoods, right? There are some neighborhoods you go to, no one's going to pick pockets you, right? Everyone's got a nice car or whatever. The other neighborhoods you go to, and there are some shady people in the corner, probably selling drugs or something. You know, uh, I'm, I'm being very simplistic, but I'm just trying to say, there are differences in neighborhoods in the physical world, and those need to be looked at as well. Because even if you gave education or a job to someone in a bad neighborhood, because of the environmental pressure, they may not be able to leave that neighborhood because they could be pressured into it.

Peter: Online it's the same, I found that you see there are clusters of criminal activities that happen. And in those virtual they're interconnected, it's like, like two, or three levels, they know each other mostly. And so, we can have this kind of, we have to think more holistically, I suppose. I'm trying to say, Nic, that, it, we also have to look at the neighborhood and how do you make sure, for example, that neighborhood they have a sports field or the streets are clean because it makes you feel good, right? There's, there are other environmental factors that I think we may need to consider in a more holistic way. We, we can move much faster that way, because there are different factors, uh, which contribute to this.

Nic: So, Peter, I honestly feel like we could keep chatting for the next four hours, right?

Natalia: (laughs), I know.

Peter: (laughs).

Nic: We, we, (laughs). We, we've already, (laughs), eaten up a, a lot of your time, and we've covered a lot of ground. I'd love to circle back one final time to, to language and really sort of ask you is, eh, maybe it's not language, but is there something that you sort of feel particularly passionate about in your career at Microsoft? What you've done so far, what you're working on, and what you hope to do moving forward, is language and opening up accessibility through language, and other sort of cultural diversity? You, you, you, spoke a lot about that in the last sort of, you know, 45 minutes. Is that, is that something that you're personally, uh, invested in, and would like to work more on in the future? And, and if not, what other areas are you, are you looking forward to in the future?

Peter: It's, it's absolutely something I'm, I'm very passionate about. And within Microsoft, as an example, the company has invested a lot in diversity and inclusion and equity, and it ended last year, but I was the president of the Africans in Microsoft employee resource group, for example, which has close to a thousand people. And all of it is about helping, working in a two way street, where we help our community, who are at times new in the country. And so, don't understand the cultural differences and how do we help them better, not integrate, but be themselves. And also, allow others that don't understand that they may be a minority, but there's so much richness to that diversity and how it makes teams stronger, because then you're not all looking through the same lens and you can bring in, you know, different perspectives about it. So, I'm absolutely invested in that, not just here in the US but also, you know, the African continent.

Peter: And, and I'm very fortunate to be working in a company that's actually pushing me to do that. You know, the company is, is doing amazing things when it comes to diversity and inclusion. And yes, there's room to be made, but at least they're active. Going back really quickly to what you mentioned about language and AI, when we look at the internet, the internet is still zeros and ones. So, when you look at machine learning models, a lot of it is looking for like over 250 signals, right? In a, in one site. And it's not just about the language, it's about different languages, computer code and human code. And so, the machines are bringing those two together, which can help better secure platforms.

Natalia: And just as we wrap up here, is there anything you want to plug? Any resources, any groups that you'd like to share with our audience?

Peter: I think for me, you know, always try and keep updated on security. So, you know, the Microsoft Security Bulletin is a, is a great source for, uh, up-to-date information. Also, I think there are many other organizations that people can search for and reach out to me on the antenna. If you're not a bad guy or girl, I'll-

Natalia: (laughs).

Peter: ... I'll share, (laughs), we, we can, um, actually, you know, I try to mentor as many people in our industry because, eh, together we become stronger. So, do reach out if you want to.

Natalia: Awesome. Thank you for that, Peter. It was great having you on the show again, and I can honestly say, we'd be happy to have you back, and it was infinitely fascinating.

Peter: Thank you very much for the invitation again. And, uh, it was a pleasure participating.

Natalia: By the way, [foreign language 00:38:17].

Peter: Uh, there you go.

Natalia: If you ever want to.

Peter: (laughs).

Natalia: (laughs).

Peter: (laughs).

Nic: Natalia, I didn't know you speak Spanish.

Natalia: (laughs).

Peter: (laughs).

Natalia: Well, we had a great time unlocking insights into security from research to artificial intelligence, keep an eye out for our next episode.

Nic: And don't forget to tweet us @msftsecurity or mail us at with topics you'd like to hear on a future episode. Until then, stay safe.

Natalia: Stay secure.