The Director-General of the Australian Signals Directorate with Rachel Noble

Andrew Hammond: Welcome to "SpyCast," the official podcast of the International Spy Museum. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Hammond, the museum's historian and curator. Each week we explore some aspect of the past, present, or future of intelligence and espionage. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving us a five-star review. Will take less than a minute of your time and will really help others find the show. Coming up next on "SpyCast."

Rachel Noble: Coming up through my career, it wasn't as profound to me that gender difference, actually, until I got to this role. And then I genuinely could see the glass ceiling and could reach out and touch it.

Andrew Hammond: This week, I was joined in the studio by Rachel Noble, Director General of the Australian Signals Directorate, or ASD. Her career in intelligence has spanned 30 years, culminating in her appointment as Director General in 2020, making her the first women to lead an Australian intelligence organization. She joined me to discuss the important work of the Australian Signals Directorate and lessons she has learned over the decades of her career. In this episode, Rachel and I discuss the Australian Signals Directorate, its purpose and mission, the true story of the Pine Gap Spy Facility in Australia, leadership and intelligence, and the second origins of the Five Eyes Alliance. The original podcast on intelligence since 2006, we are "SpyCast." Now Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Thanks ever so much for joining me. It's a pleasure to speak to you.

Rachel Noble: It's fantastic to be here, and this is one of my favorite museums in the world. I think I mentioned to you I brought my kids here, and I couldn't get them out of here. It's just so much fun.

Andrew Hammond: We're lucky. We're one of the few museums where adults and kids seem to enjoy it equally.

Rachel Noble: That's probably right. That's probably right.

Andrew Hammond: So I think the obvious place to start is, how did you first get involved in the world of intelligence? So now you're the director of an intelligence agency, but how did you get into this game?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. Well, it's a funny story about a boyfriend.

Andrew Hammond: Okay. That always is.

Rachel Noble: Yeah, exactly. It's never the straight path that you think it is, life. My sister worked at the Australian Signals Directorate, and so did my dad, actually. And so my boyfriend at the time got a job in Canberra. And I was -- we were living in Melbourne, and I thought I'd really like a job in Canberra. So back then, this is early '90s, my sister cut the job ad out of the newspaper and posted it to me in a letter. Remember those? And, yeah, I applied for the job. And, you know, the rest is history, as they say. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Hammond: And did you have -- was that a case of the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? Was there some kind of aptitude that you had for it, or was it more like an interest because of what your father did? Or what about [inaudible 00:03:31]?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. You know what, I think it is a little bit of it's in your genes. And I was working for a private company, for a big telecommunications company in Australia at the time. And I had a science degree, and I wasn't really using those skills. But also, you know, whilst the work at telcos is super important, and there's some public good from what telcos provide, I felt like there was something missing in my soul. And when I did get my first government job and that sense of mission, you know, immediately had that feeling of now I have purpose, and my soul is sort of fed by that. So yeah. And then that's led to a 30-year career in the government.

Andrew Hammond: Wow. And there's some quite interesting historic links between telecommunications and signals intelligence, right?

Rachel Noble: Yeah, they sure are. And there was a reason why governments used to also own the Postal Service, because it was the easiest way to spy on people.

Andrew Hammond: Steam open the letters.

Rachel Noble: Exactly.

Andrew Hammond: And what does it feel like -- what does it feel like now, having that come across that newspaper, cutting, you apply, boyfriend?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. Didn't marry him. Married someone else, just to be clear.

Andrew Hammond: What does it feel like now being the Director General? I mean, that's --

Rachel Noble: Yeah. I feel --

Andrew Hammond: You pinch yourself sometimes?

Rachel Noble: I so do. It's just an incredible privilege. And it's not as I sort of started at ASD and thought I want to be the Director General one day. I just, you know, had a pretty -- have had a pretty varied government career in a whole bunch of different parts of government: Immigration, Border Protection, Customs, Home Affairs, the Prime Minister's department, Defense Department, of course. So my career path was really just about exploring other things and trying different things, and then sort of finally, actually, found that what I really loved was government policy making. But, you know, rejoined ASD for a third time. This is my third stint back, actually, as the Head of the Australian Cyber Security Center. And then, you know, couldn't believe my luck to become the Director General. And it is genuinely a great privilege. I look after some of the smartest people in the country who are so, so incredibly dedicated to keeping Australia safe and looking after our national security and just incredibly expert at what they do. So it's a gift to be there every day. It really is.

Andrew Hammond: I thought it'd be quite interesting, actually, just when you were talking there, what was it like the first day you started at ASD way back when? And then what was it like, also, the first day as Director General?

Rachel Noble: That's a great story. Well, things have changed a great deal since I first started, which I think was about 1994. Like, it's so long ago, I can't remember exactly. But, you know, you go through this incredibly intensive security clearance process. So imagine me back in my sort of telco job in Melbourne, you know, going through this security process, answering all these questions, being through all these interviews, and not really knowing what ASD did. And certainly, my family, you know, weren't allowed to tell me. It's highly classified. And I'll never forget after sort of a nine-month process of waiting for my clearance, moving all my goods and chattels from Melbourne to Canberra, and sort of walked in the front door but wasn't allowed into the building. And this woman sat me down, and she said, "Look, you know, now that you're here, I just need to tell you that our job in ASD is to spy on people. And I just wanted to check that you don't have a problem with that." And I remember thinking, oh, it's a bit late. I'm sort of committed now. So I said, "No, I'm fine with that," and, you know, then was let into the building. We obviously, today, we don't -- we don't play it like that. And as you know, we talk much more publicly about our roles and the functions. They are set out on the face of legislation now, which wasn't the case when I started. That didn't actually happen until 2001. So it's incredibly hard to find out anything about the employer you are about to join. And so today, it's very, very different. And so when I became Director General, it was that kind of moment of, you know, I sat down in the Director General's office, and I'd been in there many times, sometimes when, maybe, I was in a bit of trouble giving advice to former directors. And I did have a moment of, oh my god, like Alice in Wonderland with my legs swinging under the chair, going, I can't believe I'm here. Yeah.

Andrew Hammond: I think it would be interesting just to explore a little bit more about your career. So you join the ASD. I know you've done a bunch of other things. You said you've rejoined for the third time. Help us understand the trajectory of your career both in signals intelligence, but also across government, because you've done a bunch of different things, right?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. They've all been connected to national security. It's just something that, yeah, like I said, really fulfills me and feeds my soul. I feel like -- you know, we spend a lot of our hours at work, a lot of our best years of our lives at work. And I really feel like you've got to try and do something that you love and you want to be getting up in the morning wanting to go in. And I've found that working in national security and government has been that thing for me. And ASD, that intelligence collection, cyber security, it gets in your blood. And it really is, frankly, the best place that I've worked in government. And it's just that you are surrounded by people who have the same incredible sense of purpose and sense of mission about what they do. And, of course, we have, you know, incredible allies in the Five Eyes and some of the world's cleverest, most dedicated people. So who wouldn't want to be a part of that global team?

Andrew Hammond: And what's the most surprising thing that you learned when you got into this field?

Rachel Noble: Well, I think that being a spy is more like what you see in the movies than you actually think it surely must be. So that's what's been sort of surprising about it, that we actually really do cool, amazing stuff. And we do -- you know, ASD, five, six years ago, got a third power. So we collect signals intelligence. We do cyber security. The third power was to undertake offensive cyber operations. And what that means is that we can deny, degrade, disrupt, or destroy networks outside of Australia that are not involving Australians. And so this is an incredible part of ASD, where we do start to interact with the world rather than have a more sort of passive intelligence collection or cyber defense role. So that is a really amazing part of our operations. And so, you know, fair bit of -- a fair bit of what you do see in the movies is true, and a fair bit isn't. But, you know, I'm not going to tell you the detail.

Andrew Hammond: Okay. You tell us what you do but not how you do it.

Rachel Noble: Yeah, that's it. That's my mantra. You've been reading up on me.

Andrew Hammond: So it's like just talking about fiction. So the Pain Gap TV Show.

Rachel Noble: Oh, yeah, I couldn't watch it.

Andrew Hammond: You couldn't watch. You couldn't make it through a single episode.

Rachel Noble: No. I sort of started watching the first episode and thought, I can't watch this. But, of course, a lot of people have talked to me about it, and I spent an incredible year out of -- out there as their senior Australian.

Andrew Hammond: You were the Deputy, right?

Rachel Noble: That's right, the Deputy Chief of Facility. And the Chief of Facility is an American. And it is truly a joint facility, Australians, Americans, working side by side there to do really important intelligence support mainly to our warfighters, making sure that we provide force protection and overwatch as they deploy around the world, including combat search and rescue. It's such a vital and important part of what Pine Gap does as part of a global capability. It is amazing in the outback. And I think the star of the Pine Gap TV show is definitely the outback. I mean, it is extraordinary out there. So lots of people I know watch the show. I hear that it's -- I think, not in the Pine Gap TV show, but there was another TV show called Secret City, which was a similar TV show made in Canberra about all the spy agencies there. And apparently, the Director General of ASD -- spoiler alert for those listening -- murders somebody. And I can assure you that is not part of TV that is true. But yeah, Pine Gap, all I can say is I wish my house looked like the one in the show. It certainly did not.

Andrew Hammond: Well, maybe let's just focus on Pine Gap, but the real Pine Gap just for a moment. So tell our listeners a little bit more about that. So joint Australian and American. Help them understand geographically where it is and what it does other than support warfighters.

Rachel Noble: Yeah, sure. So if you get out a map of Australia, and you point your finger right into the dead center of the continent, that's where Alice Springs is. And that's a very small Australian town of a population of about 25,000 people. And you probably have to drive 800 to 900 kilometers in any direction to get to a bigger city. So it is truly remote. Pine Gap was established between the two nations in the 1960s as an important part of global ground stations that are connected around the world to collect intelligence against adversaries. And in the '60s, of course, there were grave concerns about Russia. And so geographically, it was chosen because smack bang in the middle of Australia, it meant that no one else could really sit within our footprint and spy on us spying on them. So it was very carefully chosen for that purpose. But of course, Alice Springs, it's dry. It's hot. It's largely cloudless. And these are all really important meteorological features for a ground station of its kind. And it's really stood the test of time. It's a rich life in Alice Springs. And our American colleagues are very community minded. So I reckon Alice Springs has more American baseball teams than any other town in Australia, for example. So it's a terrific and fun place to live. And it's unique. The site itself is absolutely unique. It's governed by a policy known as Full Knowledge and Concurrence. So the genuine partnership is Australia gives its geography, if you like, to a US-led intelligence capability. We also have about 50% of the staff working there Australians, 50% Americans. So very evenly balanced. And the full knowledge and concurrence is basically that in in return for, I guess, hosting the ground station in partnership, the United States gives Australia full knowledge and understanding and an ability to concur with the intelligence activities that are conducted through Australian soil. So it's the only one of its kind in the world.

Andrew Hammond: Okay. Wow. Wow. That's fascinating. So essentially, it's intercepting and transmitting signals intelligence.

Rachel Noble: That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly right.

Andrew Hammond: Yeah. Wow. And can you just tell us a little bit more about the antecedents of Pain Gap? Does this go back to the Central Bureau in World War II and the joined American-Australian relationship there, sort of?

Rachel Noble: It's definitely connected. And the early origins of our relationship with the United States and the beginnings of the Five Eyes actually go back to World War II. And before the Central Bureau was stood out, which didn't happen until 1947 -- and I'll come back to why -- during World War II, there were a group of men and women who were collecting signals intelligence. In fact, in this case, they were focused on collecting the radio signals of the Japanese Imperial Army under US General MacArthur's leadership or command of World War II operations in the Pacific. And it was being conducted from a house in Brisbane called Nyrambla. I won't make you say that, because you have too many flat A's there with your beautiful accent. And it's still there, the house. And it was referred to as a mansion, but probably not really a mansion by today's standards. And, actually, the people doing the signals intelligence collection and decoding and reencoding with the Allies' codes were a group of women, as a matter of fact. And the women worked in the garage out the back of the house, and the men worked in the mansion. But that's -- we'll do another podcast about that if you want to.

Andrew Hammond: The Garage Girls.

Rachel Noble: Yeah, the Garage Girls, just these amazing women. And their job really was to work around the clock with their Typex machines and decode these radio signals and re-encrypt them and send them out to the Allies. And they, quite famously, were responsible for intercepting signals about the whereabouts of Admiral Yamamoto's plane. And for those listening who maybe aren't so familiar with their World War II history, he was the Japanese commander thought to have been responsible for the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And the signal went out to the Allies. Yamamoto's plane was shot down. And he was killed as a consequence. And historians say today that that act alone probably shortened World War II in the Pacific by more than two and a half years. So if you think about now the lives not lost, both of Allies and Japanese fighters at the time, it's a pretty incredible role that signals intelligence and cyber security -- in its earliest days, that was really about cybersecurity. We had better cybersecurity than the Japanese. They couldn't break our code. So our comms were safe. It's an incredible origin story, really, of the contribution of signals intelligence and cybersecurity to bringing peace, actually, to the Pacific. And so it took several years for Australia, interestingly, after World War II, to come to the agreement to stand up our own SIGINT intel cyber agency. And it was first called the Central Bureau. And there are a number of really interesting historical dynamics that contributed to that. One was that the Americans and the British at the time were very concerned that the Australian Government had had human intelligence shared with us via ASIO and that that information had been used for political gain. So there was quite a lot of concern from both the Americans and the British that Australia, you know, being a much newer sort of nation, didn't yet have the sophistication to be able to protect such sensitive intelligence, signals intelligence, that might be shared with it. So it was the cause of much debate and much requirement for assurances from those governments that Australia would behave responsibly as part of that -- part of what was then sort of the Three Eyes, which subsequently expanded. And then on top of that, we had our own domestic battles about whether the Navy or the Army should be in charge of such a signals intelligence agency and the Defense Secretary wanting to be assured that if such a thing did exist, that he would maintain control of the money, which, I think, is fascinating how there's nothing new under the sun in that regard. That's a bit cheeky for me to say that. But in any case, in the end, it was settled that ultimately, the agency would be led by a civilian. And it was stood up in Melbourne at the time. And it was now April 1947 by the time that was agreed.

Andrew Hammond: To help you digest this episode, here is a brief primer on signals intelligence, or SIGINT, which comes up a number of times in my conversation with Rachel. SIGINT is intelligence derived from electronic signals. These signals could be transmitted by communication systems, radars, or weapon systems. The idea behind it is that intelligence from these sources could help you understand an adversary's intentions, capabilities, and actions. SIGINT is often encrypted, so code making and code breaking are a huge part of the enterprise. SIGINT can further be broken down into communications intelligence, COMINT -- i.e. two human beings communicating, say, via a phone call -- and electronic intelligence, ELINT -- i.e. nonhuman speech or text like what is emitted by radar, missiles, aircraft, etc. I think COMINT is easier to understand. E.G. Andrew calls Erin on the phone, and someone listens in. But ELINT is a little harder to get your head around. So let me give you another couple of examples of ELINT to try to help you understand. I can detect microwaves being emitted from your home while my car is parked the next street over. From this, I deduce that you are home. This is ELINT. Alternatively, the US Air Force detects enemy radar and places A, B, and C, the so-called radar order of battle. This allows the US Air Force to either deploy countermeasures or to protect their planes by just avoiding the area altogether. In other words, to avoid A, B, and C, where the radar are, and to go via route D. This is also ELINT. And so just to briefly add, the Australian Signals Directorate, is that military, like the NSA, does it come under like the equivalent of the Pentagon? Or is it more like GCHQ, more civilian? Or is it somewhere in between?

Rachel Noble: It's probably more like NSA in the sense that -- so we sit in the defense portfolio. And I have equal reporting responsibility to the Minister for Defense, who is currently also the Deputy Prime Minister in our system, alongside the Secretary of Defense and our Chief of Defense Force. All three of us report directly to the Minister for Defense. So that's slightly different, I think, to NSA. GCHQ, of course, report to the Foreign Office. I guess their history being that their main responsibility was foreign signals intelligence, not domestic. So that's quite different, actually, in its construct to us.

Andrew Hammond: And just very briefly, the major Australian intelligence agencies are ASIO, which does -- you know, we're simplifying, of course -- ASIO, which is domestic, ASIS, which is foreign.

Rachel Noble: That's right.

Andrew Hammond: And the ASD, which does signals intelligence.

Rachel Noble: That's right. And ASIO and ASIS are human intelligence agencies. So their job is to sidle up to people and get people to tell them their secrets, whereas ASD is the only one that kind of does the electronic spying, where we -- basically, today, that's largely about hacking more than anything else. Yeah.

Andrew Hammond: And tell us a little bit more about your current role. So, like, I know that this is a very unfair question, I guess, in some ways. But what would a typical day look like? I know there is no typical day, but give us the odd day in the life of being the Director General of ASD.

Rachel Noble: So we start every day with an operations brief. And that doesn't start in my organization till 9:30 in the morning, which is really important to me as leader. We do that because in Australia, school starts at 9. And that really gives our people an opportunity to get the kids into school, get to work, as I said. Especially in Canberra, everything is 10 minutes' drive, so it's a very easy place to live. Get a cup of coffee, get your briefing notes, and come on into the meeting. And this is really important for me about maintaining a very family friendly and inclusive pattern of life in our day. But that morning brief is really important to me. And we will go around, and our media team will brief on big things in the media for the day. We will get briefings on any foreign affairs cables that have come in. And, of course, then we're briefing across the spectrum of intelligence that we've collected in the last 24 hours. And then we have an update on our cyber security posture and get a sense of what big incidents might be being handled by the team. So it's a really important kind of battle rhythm, to use a sort of defense or military term, to set the day's agenda. And then, really, most of my day is spent talking and engaging. And really, the most important part of my role as the Director General is to make sure that we are supporting our ministers in what they need to do and the Prime Minister, of course, on national security matters. And a lot of what I do is facing out and up to them to make sure they have what they need, but, of course, also managing what's happening and what's being said about us or our ministers that's related to our work in the public domain, and making sure that we're postured to explain or defend or, you know, whatever we need to do. And really, you know, then engaging with other agency heads and secretaries across Canberra and making sure we're communicating about what ASD is doing and what we need. And really, you know, as a lady, spend most of your day talking and communicating your intent to help your people stay together, pulling forward as one team. And sometimes, you can talk all day and wonder what you achieved. Just like anyone, you think, what did I do today? But yeah, it's a bit more intangible than, you know, working at different levels within, you know, government as I have. Yeah.

Andrew Hammond: It sounds very stressful being the Director General. How do you deal with that? Is that a combination of you've been in the organization, you get bloodied, you get increasing responsibility, so by the time you become Director General, it's kind of par for the course? Or is there some other -- do you get training? Or, like, how do you keep your head in the game? And how do you avoid getting pulled under by the darkness of the human species?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. I mean, I wish there were training. That's probably something we should do to help people. I think I just, yeah, grew up as I -- learned as I went. And it is a little bit -- there are aspects of, you know, being at that sort of level that feels a bit like, you know, it's a jungle, and everyone else is an apex predator, and, you know, you're the Capuchin monkey. There are moments that you feel like that little monkey. But you, I think, just learn to be resilient. You have to be pretty tough. I think you've got to learn not to take things personally. And, you know, I've learned something from every leader that I've worked for. And one of my favorite mantras from one Defense Secretary I worked for was, you know, take your work seriously. Don't take yourself too seriously. And that's really been something I've tried to live by. But, you know, what gets me through the day really is my ASD team. You know, they are committed. They're fun. They're passionate. They know their stuff. And so if I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed or stressed, I feel like when I come back to my own building, and I'm surrounded by just such an incredible group of people, that it kind of refills my bucket. And that kind of restores my sort of will to go on and to fight. Like, I'm genuinely -- really mean that. They're the people that get me through the day. And, of course, you know, I think, of course, having sort of balance and walking out at the end of the day and, you know, being able to turn off and spend time with my beautiful family, that just kind of also helps keep you in balance. And I think whatever that anchor is for you, if it's skydiving or bike riding or whatever, it's super important to have something that keeps you grounded and real.

Andrew Hammond: You touched on an interesting point there. When you get to the level that you're at now, all these other apex predators, how do you deal with that? So you're the first female that's been appointed to be the head of an Australian intelligence agency, which, by definition, means you're the first for ASD. What's that like at that level? Is there some kind of dynamic that's at play being a woman where -- you know, because I guess the men have had it their own way for a long time. And, you know, they're part of the club. I'm being playful here. They stick their chest out, and there's no shortage of self-confidence when you get to that kind of level.

Rachel Noble: That's for sure.

Andrew Hammond: Do you see -- do you have to kind of like say, no, I deserve to be here?

Rachel Noble: Yeah, all of those things.

Andrew Hammond: Help me understand how you don't get sort of just shouldered out of the way by all of these, you know, big overwhelming personalities. And do you -- have you ever felt like some of them have not taken you seriously because of your gender?

Rachel Noble: Yeah, definitely, all those things. And, you know, coming up through my career, it wasn't as profound to me, that gender difference, actually, until I got to this role. And then I genuinely could see the glass ceiling and could reach out and touch it and kind of punch at it, and you can't sort of break it. So even at this level, there is definitely a much more natural ecosystem where the men will look after each other, that they -- you know, they do have their club. It's hard to work out exactly where they meet, you know, and what the entry card is or whatever. So I think I've gone on my own journey about that over the last five years. And, you know, women lead differently. We talk differently. We engage in different ways. And I've had to sort of learn to own that about myself and not be tempted to try to be like the guys or compete with them on their own terms, if you will, or to adopt male behaviors in order to be heard, because I sort of feel kind of strongly that that doesn't really help other women who might come after me is just be female. And, you know, what are the traits that us girls do to compensate or balance? We're very conscientious. We study for things. And, you know, I don't walk into meetings where I haven't prepared carefully for it. And I've got an incredible team in ASD who help me do that. And I just kind of do it the female way by being capable across my brief, confident, and staying in my lane. And that's sort of really my survival technique. [ Music ]

Andrew Hammond: We've mentioned that in 2020, Rachel was the first woman to be appointed Director General of an Australian intelligence organization. "SpyCast" listeners may remember an episode we produced last year with Letitia Long, the first woman to be appointed Director of an American intelligence agency, specifically the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. Going even further into the "SpyCast" archives, the original "SpyCast" host and first Executive Director of the Spy Museum, Peter Earnest, interviewed Dame Stella Remington all the way back in 2007. Dame Stella became the first female Director General of MI-5 in 1992 and was also the first Director General whose name was publicly announced upon her appointment. During her four-year-long tenure as Director General, she continued to advocate for more transparency in the intelligence field and contributed greatly to the public's understanding of real intelligence, not the spies you see in the movies. In fact, Dame Stella is often thought to be the inspiration behind Judi Dench's M, first appearing in the Bond franchise in 1995's GoldenEye. But don't be fooled. Judi Dench's M is foolish enough to get herself kidnapped, and the world is not enough, subsequently having to be rescued by Bond. Needless to say, that movie embellishment was certainly not inspired by Dame Stella Remington. Dame Stella is close to our hearts here at the International Spy Museum, where she has served in the past as a board member and has had an instrumental role in the development and growth of the Museum. We encourage listeners to tune in to Letitia Long and Dame Stella Remington's "SpyCast" interviews after this episode. We are proud to highlight the trailblazing women and the incredible work that they have done within the intelligence community. Tell us about some of the other institutional changes that you've made. So you've come in as an entry level employee and became Director General. And over that period of time, there's obviously been things that you've thought to yourself, if I've ever got to the position of Director General, I would like to change X or Y or Z. But what are some of the other things that you've tried to do with the organization to make it more aligned with what -- where the direction you think it should be traveling in?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. So you're right. There were -- along the way, there were times where I thought, if only I could be the Director General. One of the -- I mean, really important about work life balance and, hence, moving that morning operations brief to 9:30 to take account of the start of school. We also are very strict on no meetings after 5pm unless they're operationally urgent. So really kind of not only setting those boundaries but living them myself. So I do not take meetings outside of those hours, unless I absolutely have to. So that's super important. We also, you know, have an incredibly great gender balance that I'm super proud of. We've got 50% women, 50% men in ASD, and have that in our top leadership as well. So --

Andrew Hammond: How long has it been like that?

Rachel Noble: Yeah, probably -- well, I'm not really sure, but it's really only been in the last five years that we've had that balance. And I'm surrounded by some incredible female leaders, like Abby Bradford, who's the head of the Australian Cyber Security Center. We've got some incredible women leading in both our intelligence and cyber security areas. Super important that women coming up can see senior women and see -- you know, what's that sort of mantra? You can't do it if you can't see it. So really supporting those women also to have public profiles so that other people outside of ASD can see. That this has been really important change for us. We've also worked really hard to -- we have about 500 Australian Defense Force personnel working in ASD. And historically, they have tended to be in ASD, but physically sort of separated, sitting in a different part of, you know, our buildings or whatever. And I've really tried to integrate those service personnel out into different teams to have a much better sense of partnership there and total integration, because, ultimately, as I said, our World War II origins are about supporting our warfighters. And that will remain so for so long as ASD exists, I imagine. And we mustn't ever lose sight of that as our highest priority. So that's been another feature. We have far more than 30% culturally and linguistically diverse people. And our new buildings opening up in Brisbane and Melbourne, we really chose those cities on the basis that we would attract from a much more multicultural population base in those two cities than perhaps we have in Canberra. So this has been another really important feature of us changing and growing.

Andrew Hammond: This is interesting. So I read that you're trying to make sure that 40% of the workforce is not in Canberra. And that's the main rationale for that, attracting more diversity.

Rachel Noble: Yes, that is -- I think that diversity is a side benefit. But those cities were chosen for that purpose. But the primary goal of standing up big workforces in Brisbane, Melbourne, and Perth is to ensure that ASD itself is resilient. And what that means is that we can perform any one of our most critical functions from one other site outside of Canberra. And this is really a response to the deteriorating strategic environment, particularly in the Indo Pacific. Big part of our REDSPICE program, which you might have heard of, which was announced by the former government and supported by our current government in 2022. And REDSPICE, the R in REDSPICE stands for resilience, which is one of the big strategic benefits of that investment, nearly $10 billion. We will double the size of the organization. And two years into the five-year journey towards that, we are on track, which I'm incredibly proud of. And yes, delivering major sites outside of Canberra, populating them with hundreds and hundreds of people; 40% of our growth will all be outside of Canberra. So it's very exciting, and it's a really exciting time to be in ASD. There are more opportunities than certainly I had in 1994, that's for sure.

Andrew Hammond: And there's a sizable contingent here in the US.

Rachel Noble: Sure is. We will be increasing our footprint here by 50 staff, and we'll be increasing our footprint in the United Kingdom by 100, which means, in totality, ASD, will have more than 250 people outside Australia working side by side with our allies, which is so important both to resilience but also our joint intelligence collection and cyber security and offensive cyber capabilities. And, you know, I think I said to you before that the SIGINT and cyber agencies were the original Five Eyes. After World War II, we kind of carved the world up into five and work in deep, deep partnership with each other. And what that means 80 years or so later is it's not only about sharing intelligence or sharing cyber security information. We genuinely share capability and tools, and we operate by moving forward at the pace of the two fastest, which really means that we keep striving forward together. And as one or other of the Five Eyes are positioned to make use of a tool or capability, then they would take that up. And so it really is an incredible alliance.

Andrew Hammond: And I want to come back to that. But just to finish off our discussion about being a leader and a manager of ASD, how -- you know, and this is something that people face at every sort of level. How do you deal with -- you know, say you become the Director General. There's somebody that feels like they were passed over. They're digging their heels, and they don't want to implement the changes you're making. Or there's a deeper seated -- I'm just throwing out hypotheticals here -- there's a deeper-seated cultural resistance to implementing the changes that you want to make. I don't know. Someone gets their sense of identity by turning up at 6 in the morning and leaving at 10 at night and having meetings all during those times. I guess the broader question is, how do you make sure that the changes you want implemented are implemented in the face of resistance or pushback?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. And there's always going to be that, right? I mean, most humans actually don't like change.

Andrew Hammond: We're like electricity.

Rachel Noble: Yeah. And I have to be really mindful that I love change, and I sort of thrive on if things aren't changing all the time, then I'm not sort of energized. So I have to be really careful so that I'm thoughtful that not everyone experiences change in the way that I do. I think in ASD, sure, we're going through a massive transformation. I mean, it is truly the biggest change that we've been through in our history, doubling in size, having such big footprints outside of Canberra. We're tripling our offensive cyber capability, huge uplift in our cyber security defense. And, of course, we're going after new intelligence targets that we've never got after before. Those are huge changes. Any one of those things is a big change. But altogether, it really is significant. I like to think in ASD that we can and do also make space for people who do want to continue to be the world's deepest expert in a thing, and that we have a size and capability big enough to bring those people with us and make space for them to continue to be expert in their field. But I do -- you know, I talk about it a lot at ASD. Doubling in size, what I say to my folks is that if every one of us just has one buddy and one new person that we help along the way, that we teach them about how we do things here, the intangible sort of parts of our culture, the things that aren't written down, then we'll all be okay. And I think people have sort of taken to that. And, you know, some people will take on two buddies, and some people won't take on any. And, you know, it kind of will all even out. And, you know, I think the other thing I sort of talk about is, you know, we all kind of are like hanging on to a log in a rushing kind of river, you know. And sometimes, we've got to have that leap of faith of that log, that thing that we've always done that I'm really good at, and I'm hanging on to it, because the rapids are getting faster, is to try and have a little bit of a leap of faith and let go of that log and grab on to another one, because maybe we don't need that log anymore. And because the world is changing rapidly, and we need people to perhaps not be doing some targets that they did in the past, but we need them to have new ones. So trying to bring that out in the open as a leader and encourage a conversation about that is really important.

Andrew Hammond: And that brings me on to the next thing that I wanted to talk about, which was how you work with other people. So the head of ASIO and ASIS, do you guys have, like, a formal or informal, like, biweekly breakfast meeting or, you know, monthly informal meeting? Or, like, how does it work? How do these all liaise and stay in touch and pool your sort of resources and so forth?

Rachel Noble: So Canberra is a small town, right? So --

Andrew Hammond: At the grocery store?

Rachel Noble: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we will see each other at the local supermarket. Usually, in Canberra, how that works is that there's respectful ignoring of, like, I see you there in your tracksuit with no makeup on, and I'm going to respect that. And I won't bother you. But we've known each other a long time. So, you know, Andrew Shearer, Mike Burgess, Kerri Hartland and myself all go back years. Mike Burgess and I go back a really long way. Like, we knew each other and worked together. I used to work for Mike when we were in our 20s in ASD. So, you know, that helps. And so we've been on long journeys together over many years. But we have formal meetings as well as with just each other. But also, you know, we're often at other meetings together with broader colleagues. And, of course, you know, we have a top-secret network. So we can dial each other directly on the bat phone, and we talk often, often checking in on particularly with Mike Burgess and ASIO. We do a lot of operations together. We'll talk regularly about those. So yeah, it's a very tight knit community, which is great.

Andrew Hammond: Which brings me on to the final part of our conversation. What brings you to the States? Obviously, America is a big and important partner for ASD.

Rachel Noble: It sure is. And it's always inspirational to come here and, you know, meet with our counterparts. Of course, I'll be meeting with Tim Haugh, the new Director of NSA and Head of US Cyber Command. Just such a fantastic colleague. Chris Scolese, the Director of NRO, another incredible colleague. And I always find that when I come here and I meet with them, I always feel inspired, because they're always doing amazing, imaginative, and innovative things. But it's also great to talk to someone who's -- whose role is similar to your own and shared challenges, a shared burden, if you will. But what's brought us here particularly this week is the Australian American Leadership Dialog. This is a more than 30-year-old dialog between our two nations, brought together by Phil and Julie Scanlon, an American and Australian couple married long ago, who, incredibly with this dialog, will bring together politicians from both nations, officials, academics and private sector. And we'll be talking over the next two days about our shared challenges and how we're trying to get after those challenges with that incredible cross cutting, you know, American and Australian leadership. So it's fantastic to be here for that as well. And, of course, I came here to meet you and to do this podcast. It's super important.

Andrew Hammond: Well, I'm super glad you came. And is there anything that you particularly enjoy when you come to the States, like some part of American culture? I don't know. Are you a closet baseball fan? Do you love a good hot dog? Or maybe something in DC particularly?

Rachel Noble: Yeah. Well, I mean, I love America. And, you know, as I said to you, I think I brought -- and I love Washington DC. And my family and my two kids and I, we came here for a holiday, actually, just before the dreaded pandemic and had a fantastic time. We came here to the Spy Museum. And I could not get my son out of that duct that you can crawl through. And grownups can't get up. So they had a great time here. But you have the best cookies in, like, seriously, the best cookies in the world. And they're very dangerous to me. Those snickerdoodle cookies, we don't have them. Oh, my gosh. We don't have them in Australia.

Andrew Hammond: Dusting the sugar on top. Oh, my goodness.

Rachel Noble: And just quietly, the other thing is that your cocktails are really good. And they're cheap compared to Australia.

Andrew Hammond: Oh, really?

Rachel Noble: So I don't mind a cocktail at the end of the day as well.

Andrew Hammond: There are some good cocktail bars in DC.

Rachel Noble: There sure are. But I think, you know, a lot -- America just -- it's a vast country. And you have such a varied landscape here, from deserts to, you know, snowy mountains. And, you know, it reminds me of Australia in that you've got sort of every kind of landscape, but you have way more water than we do. So it's just -- I just love getting out into the wilderness here as well. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful country.

Andrew Hammond: And do you get -- when you come for these types of trips, do you manage to get a chance to do other things, or is it all very like every five minutes is accounted for and you're just whisked from A to B, and then the next thing you know, you're back on the plane home?

Rachel Noble: It is a bit like that when you travel for work. And I do spend a bit of time in the car, sort of staring out of the window, trying to sort of take in the sights. But, you know, I've been to Washington many, many, many times over the years. I reckon I've been to almost every Smithsonian and some more than once. I mean, it is a wonderful city to visit. And hence why I brought my family back here. I just feel like in America, you are so good at telling your own history and really celebrating that and valuing all aspects of your history. And I really, you know, find that amazing. And I have had the privilege to visit Mount Vernon and Monticello. And what a fascinating naturalist Jefferson was. And there's just so much to take in. So I have been very lucky in over many years pretty much seeing all of the sites a little bit at a time when I can squeeze it in.

Andrew Hammond: Well, thanks ever so much for coming. It's been a pleasure to speak to you.

Rachel Noble: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you.

Andrew Hammond: Thank you. Come back some other time, and we'll have snickerdoodle cookies.

Rachel Noble: Oh, sounds awesome. Thanks. [ Music ]

Andrew Hammond: Thanks for listening to this episode of "SpyCast." Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you enjoy the show, please tell your friends and loved ones. Please also consider leaving us a five-star review. If you have feedback, you can reach us by email at spycast@spymuseum.org or on X at IntlSpyCast. If you go to our page at the cyberwire.com/podcast/spycast, you can find links to further resources, detailed show notes, and full transcripts. I'm your host, Andrew Hammond, and my podcast content partner is Erin Dietrick. The rest of the team involved in the show is Mike Mincy, Memphis Vaughn III, Emily Coletta, Emily Rens, Afua Anokwa, Ariel Samuel, Elliott Peltzman, Tre Hester, and Jen Eiben. This show is brought to you from the home of the world's preeminent collection of intelligence and espionage related artifacts, the International Spy Museum.